JSngry

Totally understandable, especially in light of what must have been the near (or total!) chaos in the wake of The Great Blue Note Bulletin Board Diaspora. No hard feelings at all. Thanks for listening, and keep up the good work.

I think what Diz actually said was that they had the harmony, but Bird brought the phrasing. Listening to early Diz, that seems right - he's got the harmonic stuff going on, but is still phrasing very much in an Eldridgeian manner. Even on the Minton's recordings. 'Twasn't till after he hooked up w/Bird that he became the Dizzy that we know today. I think the KC guitarist mentioned above was named Efferge Ware, but the guitarist Bid was working with in a chilli parlor (!) when he had his harmonic "breakthrough" was Biddy Fleet. Bird also credited Buster Smith quite a bit for giving him some ideas, as well as KC saxophonist Tommy Douglas, who, I think, Bird credited with hipping him to the upper extensions of chords. And of course there's Prez. There's ALWAYS Prez, thank God. I DO think that Dizzy had a significant musical role in that he took what was essentially a jam session music and gave it viable structures that could be recorded and performed in a manner suitable for "public" consumption. DeVeaux goes into this, and it's no small feat - consider the problems that post-Ornette jazz has had finding a "general" audience, at least partially to it not having recognizable frameworks to put around the improvisations (just an observation, definitely NOT a value judgement). Dizzy, however, credits Monk quite heavily as being one of, if not THE main cat to come up with new changes and substitutions. But Monk was never in the public eye until the Riverside years. Before that, he was less than a rumor to the jazz public at large. You want to throw out another name that made a contribution early one? Ok, here's one - Budd Johnson. Trummy Young shows up on a lot of those "swing-to-bop" dates, those fascinating documents where you can hear the music's evolution in progress. Also heard on more than a few of those dates - Billy Kyle and Don Byas. Tatum, Hawk, Roy, any of the Swing Era musicians who were dealing with harmonic complexities beyond the norms of the day, ALL deserve credit as formative influences (as does Duke, for both his music AND perhaps even more importantly, his ATTITUDE). The music WAS going to change, WAS going to get more "complicated", WAS going to become more "purely musical and less "functional". The indicators, musical and social alike, are all there to be seen by the historical eye. And the music actually took several different routes in this direction apart from bebop. But in my opinion, it is Bird who was the figure who crossed all the "T"s and dotted all the "I's about what the music that came to be known as bebop would be at its core, simply because he defined the rhythm, the phrasing. You can, and DID, have cats doing all kinds of harmonic and structural voodoo, but it ain't "bebop" if it ain't got that bob-and-weave phrasology to it, and by all acounts, that came purely from Bird. But really, this is the kind of "bar talk" that is fun to engage in, but ultimately proves nothing - all jazz, including "bebop", is really a collective tale, told in a collective tongue spoken in an infinite number of dialects. Anybody, ANYBODY, who told a personal tale that was heard positively by other musicians deserves credit as an influence, and I'm willing to wager dollars to doughnuts that there's more than a few who never recorded, and even some whose names are TOTALLY lost to history. So if I name Bird as the "main" formulator of "bebop", that in actuality has about as much meaning as if I say that the tree on the east side of my front yard is more "important" than the one on the west, if you know what I mean. And hey - shouldn't the material (either the LP or, ideally, the more complete CD version) on Stash's BIRTH OF THE BEBOP be made available in perpetuity?

ATTENTION ALL LOVERS OF JAZZ: YOU OWE IT TO YOURSELF TO SEE THIS MOVIE: Even though it's about tap-dancing, the stories told, especially Sandman Sims' raps about getting your own style, and the Lester-Young-converted-to-dance work of the incredible Chuck Green, to say nothing of the looks in Bunny Briggs' eyes, make it simply one of the best and truest movies about jazz ever made, if you know what I mean. Sandman in this movie is spectacular, and the three dancers, all accompanied by a Lionel Hampton big band, form a perfect parallel-in-dance to a portion of the evolution of jazz: Briggs with the flash and crip elan of the Swing Elan, Green with his Prezish otherworldiness, and Sandman with the brash fire and self-challenging complexity of bebop. The stories of each man's career also carries an eerie parallel to those of so many jazz musicians. I've lost track of how many times I've watched this movie since taping it off Bravo a few years ago, but I swear, it grows MORE mesmerizing with each viewing. And if Chuck Green's solo over the closing credits doesn't leave you in a goosebump covered trance... :D Highly, HIGHLY recommended. Bubba says check it out. R.I.P. Sandman, and thanks. You were the real deal.

HELL YEAH!!!! I'm not looking to drag this out, but the reason Mike gave for not responding to my e-mail doesn't quite ring true, seeing as how I had been in touch with him several times the day before regarding problems setting up the account. Plus, the heading on the email read Board Protocol and the message read: Hi Mike, thanks for getting me set up yesterday. A question - I am a professional musician w/a band that has CDs for sale. We are not amateurs or part-timers. We are serious, experienced, and do all original material in the post-Ornette vein. Dallas is our home, but we are trying to get out of this musical ghetto (even if it is into another one ;-) ) Does board protocol prohibit me from posting about our band's CDs and offering ordering information? I have no intent to use your board as nothing but free advertising. Trust me, I can and will bring some meat to the table when it comes to jazz discussions. My history on the Blue Note board will bear both points out. I would just appreciate the opportunity to notify people of the music's availability, and discuss it if, and ONLY if, that discussion is solicited. If the general membership complains (and I know that the ex-BN contingent won't), then I will respect that sentiment and not go down that road. If you have doubts as to the music itself, check out samples at www.musicaconcarne.com or ask Chuck Nessa or ANY of the BN-exes. They will vouch for both the music and my personal ethics. Several BNBB people have purchased our CDs as well, and are more than pleased with them. Thank you for your consideration. Jim Sangrey (JSngry on your board) I know the guy's busy, and it's entirely possible that he just overlooked the e-mail. No problem. But considering the timing of the e-mail, and the fact that I sent it from my home e-mail (which has no "business" indicators at all), somehow the victim-of-an-anti-spam-program explanation... Anyway, AAJ is a good site, and provides lots of exposure to a music that definitely needs it. Far be it from me to feel bad about THAT. But my personal BBS preference remains for this board, run by actual musicians, cats who have a simpatico to the realities of this music and its accompanying bizness that makes me feel good about being here, like I'm hanging at a site sponsored and run by truly kindred spirits.

Welcome, grey!

Stained glass Elvin? Coolest thing I've seen in some time. Where'd ya' get it RT?

DUDE! If WE had ....

Uh, is it by Billy Martin?

Who's this Rumi cat?

Fair enough, but have you actually been to Texas and explored our barbeque at any length? There's literally infinite variations in the sauces, some quite spicy, and some more sweet (and I don't like the sweet stuff either). The best sauces are neither sweet nor spicy. They achieve a blend where individual elements become indistinguishable and all that remains is THE SAUCE, a flavor unto itself, and one that should enhance the meat, not dominate it. I ask if you've ever experienced actual Texas BBQ because about 20 years ago, I was in Buffalo, NY, on the road w/a band, and was delighted to find a "Mexican Restaurant" in town (this was 20+ years ago, remember, and the Tex-Mex boom was still a ways off). It had been at least 6 weeks since my last dose of the stuff, and I was JONESIN', so I went in and ordered a, uh, "rather large" amount of food. First up, a nice, big bean and cheese burrito. The first bite was the last - the naive Buffaloians had used SWISS CHEESE on this burrito. I checked the enchiladas - same thing. I went away sad, angry, and above all, HUNGRY. Well, that's just WRONG, but if that had been my sole exposure to Mexican food, I'd probably think "not for me. thanks anyway".

Oh, I know it. Thing is, I knew it before Game 5 too... :D Seriously, I gotta give props to my boys - with absolutely NO significant, or even SEMI-significant, presence in the middle and minimal defensive skills, they put together a regular season that was successful by any standard. Their playoff run has been a result of a combination of opponents' injuries (if it takes you 7 games to beat the Kings WITHOUT Chris Webber...), strategic cunning (Don Nelson should be a SERIOUS candidate for Coach Of The Year, imo), and good old-fashioned guts (what happened Tuesday night is the gutsiest sporting performance I've seen since Emmit Smith played that title game against the Giants with a seperated shoulder), and, yes, shooters who can, in streaks, score quicker and more frequently than Russell Crowe in a roomfull of Meg Ryan clones. But hey - love means never having to say "you're dead". If you got kids, you know the feeling - they're going nto a situation, athletic or otherwise, where you KNOW they don't stand a snowball's chance in hell, but by God, you stand by'em anyway, build'em up, let them know you love'em, and try to inspire to do their best. When they fail, you're still proud as hell of them, and every so often, once every VERY seldom, they actually win. If Game 5 was that "once every VERY seldom" for this season, and realistically, it's 99.99999999999% certain that it was (the Lakers paid the price of the Spurs' self-revulsion at letting things slip away, and I expect they're significantly more pissed about what happened Tuesday night), then so be it. But let's play the game first - concession before actually being defeated is MOST unbecoming, no?

Oh geez...sounds like I got some catching up to do...gimme today and tomorrow, ok? Really, I hope nobody's offended or otherwise put off (although if you are, I understand). It's just that it's a LOT quicker and easier to do "hit and run" posting to a community than it is to actually communicate with REAL PEOPLE individually! But I SHALL seek, retrieve, and respond. You have my word!

A copy of Debut DLP-2 would answer that question, but where the hell you gonna find one of THOSE?

Hurt By Stool Tossed From School is a great band, and Passer is a great album. I do not unserstand the AP's cryptic review posted here. Must be some of that "post modern irony" at work.

Gotta go for the Spurs. As well-rounded and STRONG of a team as there is in the NBA right now. (HOWEVER: as likely as it is that the Mavs are finished, there is no ABSOLUTE certainty in this matter. This is apparently a team that REFUSES to go peacefully into the night, and I think that having Dirk out actually makes them a better team defensively. Let the shooters get into that Peter Pan, "look at me, I can FLY" zone they get into early enough and long enough tonight, let Walt Williams provide something actually resembling a presence on the boards, and let Nellie keep coming up with ways to allow his team to do everything they have no right to do, AND let the Spurs get rattled - a HUGE "and", and don't think I don't know it - then the WC series might go 7 games, and if THAT happens all bets are off, home court advantage be damned. I know it's a really, REALLY, REALLY long shot, but hey, I'm proud of my team for doing what they've done so far - very much a "work in progress" of a team - and as a matter of principle, I refuse to deny the possibility of that ultra-long shot coming to pass as long as Nick Van Exel is alive and playing!)

FWIW, when I first joined at AAJ, I emailed the main cat over there asking if posting info and having discussions about Quartet Out would be a violation of their anti-spam policy if I was also an active participant in the general board community. I told hi I would respect his decision either way. I just wanted to remove any ambiguity so as not to "make trouble" by assuming anything. I never got a response from him. Rightly or wrongly, I was left with the impression that AAJ wanted "business" (which is certainly ANY commercial site's goal, and SHOULD be), and didn't want to commit either way for fear of violating their own policy and/or alienating a potentially active poster. You know, having your cake and eating it too, as they say. I understood (and still do), but that board has ever since had a feel of "discussion as a business tool" that deeply runs counter to my personal code about this music and whatever place I have in it as player and/or fan. Right or wrong, that's just me. These days, Organissimo is about the only place I either post or read. My time for doing such is significantly less now than it used to be, and since this place has always been my "sentimental favorite" as a ".org", MUSICIAN-RUN site since Day One, the choice has been easy. On rare days when the free time is greater than usual, I'll check out AAJ & JazzCorner, maybe post a bit here and there. Jazz Corner, an absolutely marvellous community, seems to require pretty active posting in order to REALLY "fit in", and I just don't have the time for actively participating in both boards (wish I did, though). AAJ offers a "one stop jazz experience", what with their articles, reviews, etc, in addition to their board, but I dunno... What was the question again?

Two foods for thought from Miles, as related by Dave Liebman, ca. 1979: If you have one new, REALLY new idea, per month, you're doing good. Anything more than that and you're doing REALLY good. Don't blame the tune if you get hung for ideas. You're playing it, it's not playing you. Really, the older I get, the less concerned I am with overt "creativity" as I am just being "in the moment", relaxing, and letting whatever is inside come out with as few hinderances as possible. Some days are better than others... The whole issue of "creativity" is one that I'm evolving on myself. After a while, one's personal language begins to stabilize somewhat, and what do you do then? Just stagnate and become a repeater pencil or constantly throw out what you've accrued in hopes of always being "new"? The former might as well be a death sentence, and the latter seems a denial of the validity of however far you've come (and if THAT sucked so bad that you had to throw it out, why is "this time" going to prove any better?). Myself, I think that after a while, refinement should naturally take precedence over constant "discovery". Funny thing is, refinement can open up a whole new set of options, notably deciding what to leave OUT rather than what to put in, to say nothing of getting in touch with one's personal rhytmic sensibility (I can't tell you how SICK I am of hearing these players who are so obsessed with harmony that they play everything in a rhythmic monotone!). Growing harmoically is always an option too. So long as one is expanding (and in a really cool paradox, refinement IS a form of expansion, at least in my mind) in some form or fashion, the adventure should remain alive. When it goes away, something's wrong, and the solution, as Miles implied, has to come from within. Like Warne Marsh said, "You have to take responsibility for your own melody". Not that it's ever as cut-and-dried as a post like this might make it seem. Really, though, the object of the game, I think, is to be real, to be YOU as fully as possible. Sometimes consciously working at that gets good results, but sometimes it's lethal. There are no sure things, and trial-and-error only helps the odds. It never beats them. There's different kinds of growth, and what works for one might be horribly ill-suited for another. One thing's for sure though - there's always more to do in some form or fashion. discovering what the next "something" is going to be is one of the most satisfying experiences life has to offer, even if pursuing it (or figuring out what it is) can sometimes suck the life out of you. Hey - ain't no such thing as a free lunch! :D

Dude, check it out - that "unedited" intro is HIGHLY edited - the first 2 A Sections are dupes of the third (with the last phrase being duped in from ?) - listen for the applause, Powell's chords, and the "unnatural" decay of Max's cymbal crash. Still, the bridge IS totally new to me, so my guess would be that for some reason the first 14 bars were unusable and "they" patched one together from the 3rd A Section and the lst two bars of the 2nd. Just a guess based on a quick listen, but it seems ABOUT right. Thanks indeed - that "lost" bridge is hipper than shit!

I agree! I'd delete it, but it's just TOO bizarre...

Dude, it's unbreakable. I think I just stumbled into a worm hole there for a second.

Just a layman's guess, but I'm thinking that the size of the post was so large that it "swallowed" the remainder of the page in order for it to "survive. I know that when I tried to quote THAT post, I got an error message about too much information or something, and I couldn't get back to the site until I closed out and relinked. Damn, is there anything I CAN'T break?

The accident cannot be duplicated! I think this goes beyond science into the realm of the miraculous. Somebody call the Enquirer.

DUDE! Somehow I captured the BOTTOM OF THE PAGE inside that post. Funny thing is, the buttons and links all work. A cosmic accident to be sure... Is this how Newton discovered gravity, or how Peter Parker discovered Spiderman?

Did Debut ever release the NON-overdubbed version for public consumption, even briefly, before issuing the overdubbed version? Was this first released as two 10" LPs? Seems like it was, but that was before my time and I'm wondering if that's a false impression I got. That's wild about the missing beginning of "Perdido". I just assumed that the tape got turned on a bit late and they faded in at the earliest opportune moment. Never dreamed that 3/4 of the opening chorus was there to be had.