K1969

mmmmmmm beautiful cover

that is one beautiful centre label

That explains all the porno I got searching for black Patsy. 78/33?? - I'll stick to my 45s!

Simba is the exception. Fewer covers and some great stuff by Manny Albam. IMO it's the one to have. The rest are pretty weak though. Michael Longo's 900 shares of the blues is a killer. True that the Ramon Morris and Larry Willis are two of the label's best.

I read a fascinating account by legendary 78 collector Joe Bussard of how made his best ever find - a box of near mint "Black patsy" 78s under the bed of some old critter in a delapidated shack in the Appalachians. Each LP alone was worth thousands. Subsequently he has been offered 20 grand just for one LP. (he didn't sell) He found the guy's place by offering to pick him up when he thumbed a lift. They got into conversation and he effectively invited himself into his shack after the guy said in passing that he had a crate of pre war 78s that he never played - the kind of thing that sends shivers up the collector's spine. I wish I could find a link to the article but it seems to have been taken down. Anyhow I rememer it pretty well so I'll try to recall the best quotes. There was a great line when he dragged the box out from under the bed and saw the Black Patsy label, his heart stopping and beads of sweat hitting hte floor....."summoning up all the nonchalance that I could I asked "er, what do I owe you?" " I love the idea of summoning up nonchalance! All he was thinking was "get the fucking LP's out of here and into the fucking car! QUICK!!" He also said he was paranoid to hear the old man's wife's shrill voice at any moment cry"Ebenezer! you're not going to sell my grand father's records now are you!" He ended up paying 20 bucks for the whole crate!

I could not agree more!!! Brilliantly said! Nice to see some love for FAT ALBERT ROTUNDA, on which Joe also (and magnificently) appears! Ever heard Patrice Rushen's first LP Prelusion? It's strictly instrumental and Joes makes a guest apprearance and blow the roof off. A complete anomoly but brilliant.

Do no wrong?!! ......that's better

Looks like an LP of easy listening schlock

I take it she hadn't yet graduated

Did the owner look like this? No. He was a middle aged African American man, quite pleasant to talk to. OK he can't been the guy I know then. His records were scratched and they all had cut corners

Did the owner look like this?

liner notes say it was engineered by George Sawtelle

I hardly have any Joe Henderson recordings. In fact, the only other Joe album I own is MODE FOR JOE. .....this album has all the earmarks of a great CTI record; I even file this next to Hubbard's CTI albums. Have you heard Inner Urge from 1964? Rather than a CTI LP I tend to think of PTTP as an updated return to the style of that previous blue note LP (my favourite of all Joes) If you haven't I suggest you check it out cos those who like PTTP tend to love Inner Urge - particularly the title track and El Barrio. I've always felt that Joe was best in a smaller, freer contexts, quartet or quintet maximum, with the minimum of arrangements and a lot so time to stretch out. This is why I particularly like Inner Urge. El Barrio itself is just a spontaneous improvisation on a simple two chord theme. It just takes off and never comes down. Which leads me to the trumpet player on this album, Mike Lawrence. I don't know much about him, but a quick AMG search reveals he spent a lot of time with Bob James, FWIW. IMO, he does a fantastic job of establishing his own voice, when it would've been so easy to be another Freddie clone.

Sat through evenings of his one-liners. Always the same stuff but delivered in impeccable style. "At the Club next week we have Joe Henderson" (room goes silent all of a sudden). "That's Joe "Piano" Henderson".. and in a similar vein: "Next week at the club we have MILES..." (huge gasps of awe and shock, people spilling their drinks etc - it was 1979). "Sir Bernard Miles". and one of his perenial favourites- "Why don't all you people sitting in the front row hold hands to see if you can contact the living". thanks. You've jogged my memory. Here he was joking about hard times when audience numbers were down. Woman rings up Ronnie Scott's club on a rainy Tuesday night in march. "Hello?" "er is this Ronnie Scott's?" "YES!! Ronnie here!" "Oh, how honoured" "Don't mention it. What can I do for you?" "I don't suppose you have a table for 2 left for tonight? - it's surprise for my husband' "er (looking round the deserted hall), I think we can squeeze you in, near the band too" "Oh Wonderful!! And what'll the band be playing?" "er, solo saxophone..very intimate." "Charming and what time does it start" "What time you arriving?"

I've always found there's a certain strand of acidic wit amongst jazz musicians and the jazz club fraternity. Ronnie Scott had a great line in black humour. I'd love it if anyone can remember any of his gags - or any one elses. The only one I can recall it this (not bad but not one of his best I'm sure) Father: "Hey son do you want to become a musician like your Dad?" Son: "Yeah, when i grow up I want to be a drummer" Dad "You can't do both son"

OK I was young and very naive. Before the golden age of reissues I was in a second hand record store in London circa '89 and asked if they had a copy of Sun Ra's Lanquidity. The guy behind the counter kept a perfectly placid face and said "yes, actually there's sealed copy in the comedy section for 2 pounds" My heart lept and and I asked "Where's the comedy section?" I waited till I could grow a beard before going back into that store.

I'm a huge Caldwell fan and un repentant "acid jazz" fan. His conga playing is so direct and intuitive, yet he has a really distinctive sound that just percolates over the beat. Check out prestige tracks like Message from the Meters and Super Bad where his sound dominates. My favourite line up from that era has to be Muhammad, Sparks (seen as great soloist but i've always preferred his rhythm playing), Leon Spencer, Grover Washington, Virgil Jones and the great, great, unsung Caldwell.

That goes back to my first question. Could a technically brilliant saxophonist who can already imitate Joe Henderson's style also imitate his tone? ... or who he at least have to use Joe's sax to get even near? In other words, if you take all the "inherent factors" that you just noted above and compared them to the "objective factors" like saxophone model, reed etc, where's the trade off, if only roughly speaking? Shit ! sorry for the double posting - that's what happens when you're supposed to be working!

That goes back to my first question. Could a technically brilliant saxophonist who can already imitate Joe Henderson's style also imitate his tone? ... or who he at least have to use Joe's sax to get even near? In other words, if you take all the "inherent factors" that you just noted above and compared them to the "objective factors" like saxophone model, reed etc, where's the trade off? Maybe it's impossible to answer even just figuratively, but I'm still curious.

Interesting comments, thanks. Let's just reflect on the narrower notion of "tone" - as in pure sonic colour, as opposed to the broader notion of a "sound" which includes stylistic and technical factors too. Taking Henderson again as an example, I've often heard his "tone' described as "woody" or "oaky" and I can relate to that in how I hear his "tone". I'm therefore fascinated to know whether this "oakiness" comes from his sax, or from, as you intimated, the more innate aspects like his "chops, use of air, shape of oral cavity, teeth etc." I know that this isn't necessarily answerable with respect to Henderson, but I'm still fascinated to know to what extent the "voice" of the musician as a mere talking human being, translates into the sound that exits from the end of the sax or trumpet?

What can I say? My ears just hear it differently to yours. To me there are HUGE differences in both the sound and style of the music between early and late Joe Farrel CTI. Regarding the latter period, let me try to give you a more specific example. The next time you spin the track canned funk, listen to the 12 (or is it 16?) bar break down where the bass leads with a kind of loping melody. It repeats itself several times throughout the track. Jesus how many processors or God only knows what did the engineer (was is RVG?) crank that bass through? To me it sounds tortured. You never heard that kind of production on earlier CTI sides which were much more organic sounding even when they employed electronics. We're drifting a bit of from the theme of the thread but may be i just don't like over laboured production. But hey, if you dig it, that's cool.

I can't say I'm surprised - non one ever seems to agree on CTI which is kind of a hommage to Creed Taylor if you believe in healthy debate. There's quite a few CTI titles i like - but mainly from the earlier period. If for you, the "classic" CTI sound is from the mid 70s, then I can see why canned funk is "pure CTI". For me it's pure migrane. Vive la difference

This is probably a stupid question but what the hell. Putting technical style to one side for a moment, I've always wondered what it is that makes an individual musician's "sound" unique. To what extent is it determined by objective factors like the model of the saxophone, trumpet or the type of reed etc, and to what extend is it a consequence of the player's own innate "voice"? I guess the answer is a combination of both but I'd like to hear from others anyhow. Say for argument's sake you wanted to impersonate Joe Henderson , would you have to take his own sax, or could you recreate his sound on a different one? When a player changes his model, does he "lose" his old sound a bit (and gain a new one) ? (PS if it's not already obvious I'm not a musician so I didn't post this in the musician's section)