Mark Stryker

Sorry, but to call Tristano Herbie's "prime" influence based on a certain similarity that perhaps only you happen to hear -- in the absence of literally one shred of hard evidence that Herbie seriously checked out Tristano -- is silly. I'm not saying there might not actually be some rhyme in the conception, but that's not at all the same as influence, let alone prime influence. Also, the racial thing doesn't make any sense given that Herbie has from day 1 acknowledged Bill Evans as both an influence and hero, and for what it's worth, also said he was later influenced by Chick Corea. Herbie has been interviewed a zillion times and people he's worked with, friends and enemies, have been interviewed a zillion times about him and not once can I ever recall anyone linking him to Tristano to the degree you suggest. Again, I'm not saying drawing parallels is out of line; I'm saying influence is another matter. I'm with Jim: if there's any Tristano at all in Herbie, it comes via Evans. And I would amend Jim's list of Herbie's early influences to also include Ahmad Jamal, Horace Silver, Bud Powell and Ravel -- Herbie's great accomplishment was to take all of those previous strands and weave them into a new template.

We respect to No. 1, I think you're misreading Burton. He's refering not to Bird's playing but the sound of the entire group, and here I would agree with him. It took several years for rhythm sections to fully match the fluidity of Bird, Dizzy and Bud in the new style. As for for No. 2, what evidence is there that Herbie studied Lennie Tristano and that he was his prime influence?

No time to add comment but here's an article by Kahn from 2000 that address the topic of influence, immediate, gradual and otherwise, with especially interesting quotes from Herbie Hancock and Gary Burton. http://jazztimes.com/articles/20304-miles-davis-kind-of-blue-blues-clues

The two that I find myself going back to most are "Merry-Go-Round," which has great, diverse material, a band that swells from a trio up to an octet and fine, focused studio playing from Liebman, Grossman,Farrell, Corea, Hammer -- one of my favorite Elvin-led sessions from any period. The other is "Live at the Lighthouse," which captures the two-tenor working quartet (Liebman, Grossman, Perla) really going for it in a club; Elvin sounds like a miracle and it's a strong document of the first wave of young, post-Coltrane tenors.

Hey, thanks for the response and digging up the old thread.

Anybody know the details surrounding the English lyric for the song "Dindi" in the version that Sinatra sings on Francis Albert Sinatra & Antonio Carlos Jobim" from 1967. The music was written by Jobim and references seem to indicate that the original lyrics were written by Aloysio de Oliveira and that English lyrics were added by Ray Gilbert. But it's unclear if Gilbert's lyrics were original or a translation of Oliveira and its further unclear if the English that Sinatra is singing is Gilbert, Gilbert's translation of Oliveira or somebody else's translation of Oliveira. Thanks.

I unfortunately let the Thad Jones-Mel Lewis Mosaic box elude me, and while I own all the original LPs, I find myself now interested in the Mosaic re-masterings (which I have yet to hear), because of the removal of artificial reverberation that I'm sure has been much discussed here in other threads. I'm posting here because I have a few specific questions: Are the single CD issues that came out on Blue Note of "Consummation," "Live at the Village Vanguard," "Central Park North," etc. remastered on the Mosaic model, sans reverb? Anybody have strong opinions one way or the other whether these are worth it, whether, in other words, removing the reverb qualifies as "revelatory"? Finally, did "Monday Night" and the the first Solid State LP ever come out on individual CDs?

You can not imagine how deflating that call is here at the epicenter. Oh, man.

Big topic here, and I agree with much of Jim's earlier analysis, so I'll try and keep it brief. I love the swingers, but put a gun to my head and I'd choose the ballads. And while I prefer the melancholy mood of "Wee Small Hours" to "Only the Lonely" (both are masterpieces, of course) I've decided after many years that "Close to You" is my absolute favorite for the conversational intimacy of the setting with the Hollywood String Quartet, the incredible liquid, viola quality of Sinatra's voice at its absolute peak of control and expression, and the fresh, beautifully constructed songs like "Couldn't Sleep a Wink," "Blame It On My Youth," "P.S. I Love You," "With Every Breath I Take," etc. Anybody that doesn't know this album needs to find a copy as soon as possible. Really. As far as the swingers go, I think Jim is right that Sinatra becomes most comfortable with jazz in the '60s. Having said that, however, for me, Sinatra sounds best when he is slightly hipper than his accompaniment rather than the other way around. That's why when it comes to "rhythm" numbers, I have long preferred "Songs for Swinging Lovers," "Swinging Affair," "Ring-a-Ding-Ding," etc. to the LPs with Basie. Plus, I always thought he wasn't in the greatest vocal shape on the Sands recordings. (One digression: Bill Kirchner wrote in a discussion over at Doug Ramsey's blog a while back that he always considered "Ring-a-Ding-Ding" (late 1960) to be Sinatra's bebop album because Johnny Mandel's charts incorporated certain modern ideas that Riddle-May, who were from a slightly older generation, did not, and because the band on the album included a bunch of West Coast jazzers, among them Joe Maini, Bud Shank, Frank Rosolino, etc. In any case, that's a tremendous album. Very underrated, as is "Sinatra and Swingin' Brass" from 1962 with Neal Hefti charts.) Here are some interesting clips. Sinatra appeared with Basie at the Hollywood Palace for a TV show in '65 and he and the band are incredible here -- far stronger than the Sands, the earlier LPs with Basie or the '65 concert in St. Louis. More of this used to be on Youtube but lots of it appears to have been removed. There was an especially interesting take on "Too Marvelous for Words" which seems to have been an unrecorded Quincy Jones chart. (He's conducting.) This clip has a Basie instrumental and then "Fly Me To the Moon." Wish the rest was available somewhere. Two early jazz tunes: 1946 with the Metronome All-Stars (Cole, Hawkins, Carney, Hodges, Shavers and more) with one of two takes of "Sweet Loraine." 1951 or so on TV -- "I've Got My Love To Keep Me Warm." This is really intriguing to me, because it seems to capture the nascent beginnings of the grown-up tom cat approach to swinging standards that defined the upcoming Capitol era. It's almost like he's inventing it on the spot. Lots of signature moments -- in the third A section of the first chorus he connects the line "So I will weather the storm/what do I care" without a breath to create one ridiculously long phrase. He really lays back the first time he does it, and the time almost gets away from him. He does the same trick on the final A of the tune (with more secure time), and then uses the "lookey-here now" interjection as a kind of climatic tag. Nice arrangement, too, and the pianist plays some hip shit starting in the second bridge. Another interesting detail is that in that final A, Sinatra unbottons his jacket and flips open his collar as he sings, "My hearts on fire/with one desire." That's obviously a deliberate gesture; a tiny but effective piece of theater.

The Public Editor of the New York Times devoted his column today to the blog post about Hank's final residence: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/30/opinion/30pubed.html

That and Griffin's first Argo LP are some of the best tenor sax debut albums ever recorded, IMHO. Not to sidetrack the thread, but Joe Henderson's "Page One" is the best I can think of in this class (and Henderson's earlier appearance on Kenny Dorham's "Una Mas" is just as remarkable, one of the greatest pure debuts ever in my opinion) -- his mature voice was there right from the starter's gun of his recording career.

Here's a list of Verve's Spoken Word, International Series, which includes their original comedy releases. http://www.jazzdisco.org/verve-records/catalog-spoken-word-international-series/album-index/ For what it's worth, the most comprehensive Comedy discography I've seen is called "Laughter on Record: A Comedy Discography" by Warren Debenham, published by the Scarecrow Press in 1988. http://www.amazon.com/Laughter-Record-Discography-Warren-Debenham/dp/0810820943/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1274614800&sr=1-1 It's quite remarkable. 4,367 listings -- from A&P Players' "I Love Jimmy Carter, Jimy Carter" (A&P AP-1001) to Ziegfeld's "Ziegfeld Girl." (C.I.F. 3006;two comedy cuts). It's also indexed by subject, which is interesting. Sample topics under O: Occupations - blue-coller workers - business - firemen Off-Key Singing Old Age - old men - old women - retirement homes - retirement party - romance Opera - Carmen Outer Space (See also astronauts; Star Trek) The book doesn't include CDs and it's not annotated, but if you're interested in knowing what's out there, it has it all.

Detroit Free Press obituary posted this afternoon. http://www.freep.com/article/20100517/ENT04/100517032/1320/Legendary-jazz-pianist-Hank-Jones-dies

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/15/arts/music/15rio.html?ref=obituaries Remarkable obituary of a celebrated organist for silent movies, radio and TV

Thanks for the additional details, though, yes, the recording details are on the back of my box too.

I've just come into a 5-LP box, "The Father of Modern Jazz Piano" on the M.F. Productions label. If there was a booklet with the package originally, it's disappeared from my set. Anybody got more info on these records and whether they came out in other forms on other labels? Three of the LPs are solo and are just mind-blowingly great. All recorded in Chicago, Sept-Oct. 1977; other material from Dec. 1977 (New York) with Budd Johnson, Bill Pemberton and Oliver Jackson. A lot of the tracks are extended -- 7-10 minute versions of "The One I Love Belongs to Somebody Else," "Just Friends," "East of the Sun," "Can't We Talk it Over," "Blues in Thirds." These are really wild rides. I've only recently started listening to these late solo recordings and they are rapidly becoming some of my favorite music. A lot of the attraction for me is that I think Hines was really a true improviser in the sense of playing things in performance that he literally had never played before -- like Sonny Rollins. In a sense, most players are basically editors, more or less re-arranging things they’ve practiced, with brief flashes of new ideas emerging from scratch. No shame in this, of course, because it's certainly a critical part of an improviser’s art, but it's not the same thing as the more elevated plane of literally inventing new stuff on the spot. I've always felt that Sonny was the ideal true improviser because when he’s on, he’s actually playing a ridiculously high percentage of ideas he’s never played before. I think late Hines is in that category and it's the fundamental source of why there's so much electricity in his playing and one of the reasons why he always sounds so damn modern. There are other reasons too that have to do with the way he addresses the piano, especially the active left hand, the way he spreads the rhythm out between the two hands, the bursts of spontaneous counterpoint and single notes and jabbing chords (bebop!) while always letting his right hand carry the linear invention. The harmonic sense is very sophisticated and he's always swinging! While he'll play his left hand on all four beats at times and hook into a modified stride but not for long and never in a way that weighs down the music. In a certain sense the assimilation of so much of the jazz piano history reminds me of Hank Jones, another player who stands outside of chronological time and style. Side note: Bill Charlap's Trio was in town for four nights this week and the topic of Hines' late solo playing came up briefly in a conversation I had with him last night. He said these performances always reminded him of Erroll Garner's introductions -- except that with Hines, the entire performances had that discursive, unpredictable quality. Anyway, any info on this M.F. Productions box would be appreciated.

While I do really try to live in the present, some things really were a lot better in the old days -- and one of them was jazz singing. The standards were so much higher just to get in the game. Holy cow, that's simply an amazing performance, especially, for me, the casual authority of the expression. I mean, everything is at the highest, most sophisticated musical level, but nothing is forced, and the genius doesn't preclude the populist appeal. In fact, it may enhance it. Thanks for posting.

Those are some mouth watering gigs for sure. I almost fell off my chair when I read those on Ellery's site years ago. I talked to Joel Dorn numerous times when he was going through the tapes as I was involved in the release of the Freddie Hubbard material. I definitely asked about some of the ones mentioned above and about certain artists in general and don't recall all his answers now. One big issue was clearances. If it involved big names like Hancock, Shorter, Tyner or Rollins then it was going to be too cost prohibitive for him to release. I was particularly intrigued with May 23, 1965: Herbie Hancock, Sam Rivers, Ron Carter, Tony Williams July 7, 1965: Roy Haynes, Wayner Shorter, Albert Dailey, Larry Ridley May 15, 1966: Freddie Hubbard, Hank Mobley, Ronnie Matthews, Paul Chambers, Philly Joe Jones Dec. 4, 1966: Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Freddie Hubbard, Ron Carter, Jack DeJohnette Especially the Shorter/Haynes thing but again this one would have been too cost prohibitive to release. There were also sound quality issues. Some were recorded much better then others. I remember asking about a Lee Morgan one and being told there was no bass audible on the recording. The rights reverted back to whomever licensed them to Dorn years ago. Someone else could license them and see what is there but the best ones are going to be costly to release. I have a program similar to Ellery's that I just acquired but this is a later one that lists concerts up to 12/15/74 There is nothing as jaw dropping as what is mentioned above but there is some interesting stuff. The Coltrane concert in question is still listed. Other stuff of interest Max Roach with Charles Tolliver and Odean Pope Art Blakey with Curtis Fuller back in the band with Woody Shaw 6/1/69 Lee Morgan with Billy Higgins subbing for Freddie Waits 1/24/71 Art Blakey with three tenor players Ramon Morris, Buddy Terry and Denny Marouse? 4/9/72 Art Blakey with Dizzy Reece 1/21/73 Elvin Jones with Hank Jones and Azar Lawrence and Steve Grossman 4/1/73 Thanks for the details. I get that there's a distinction between what may exist and what's releasable when you factor in payment cost for artists and sound quality issues. But I gather at this point that not even any unauthorized bootleg cassettes of any of the particularly mouth-watering gigs listed above have ever surfaced, correct?

Here's another Sonny Rollins question I've always wondered about. "The Standard Sonny Rollins" (RCA, 1964) contains some unbelievably great playing, but, of course, most of the tunes were intentionally kept short, either through fade-outs, edits or simply brief performances. It's frustrating, especially the fade-outs on, say, "Three Little Words" and "I'll Be Seeing You," where Sonny's inspiration is high and he sounds like he's about to play a zillion choruses but the tunes fade midstream after about two minutes. So, the question: Are there completely unedited masters somewhere of these sessions, where we might someday be able to hear all the incredible shit Sonny continued to play after the fade-outs? (I also wouldn't mind hearing the rest of Herbie Hancock's obviously edited piano solo on "It Could Happen to you.") Incidentally, when I was hanging around backstage after Sonny's concert in Detroit a couple weeks ago -- he sounded fantastic, by the way -- I heard him refer to this record as "one of my favorites" when somebody asked him to sign a copy. I meant to ask Sonny whose idea it was, his or producer George Avakian's, to program the record with short performances, fade-outs, etc., but I forgot.

As it happens, I saw Hal Galper tonight with his current trio in Ann Arbor and was able to ask him if he remembered the gig and if somebody taped it. The bad news: no tape. What was really funny, however, given the issues with the piano that folks have noted in this thread, was that when I asked if a tape exists he said, "I hope not! I hated that gig. It was a TERRIBLE piano. Everybody else could have fun and I had to suffer." 44 years later and that piano still bugs him.

I've got the two Freddie Hubbard Label M discs from the Left Bank and the Getz with Beirach/Holland/DeJohnette; but the Stitt/Ammons had escaped my notice. I'll track it town pronto based on everyone's enthusiasm. Thinking more broadly, there's the Joe Henderson/Wynton Kelly Trio set that came out on Verve and if I recall correctly, the George Coleman w/Wynton Kelly Trio set that goes back to various LP incarnations was also from the Left Bank also has Left Bank roots. But those dates I singled out above, looked ridiculously enticing. Here's hoping ...

I was listening to Sam Rivers' "A New Jazz Conception" this morning via the Mosaic set and the notes say the same quartet (Hal Galper, Herbie Lewis, Steve Ellington) played the Left Bank Jazz Society in Baltimore 12 days after the recording session. Does anyone know if a tape exists? The date appears to be Oct. 23, 1966. A little searching led me to this listing of Left Bank concerts passed along by Ellery Eskelin. http://home.earthlink.net/~eskelin/leftbank.html Many of these concerts look remarkable, of course. I'm especially wondering if tapes exist for any of the following: May 23, 1965: Herbie Hancock, Sam Rivers, Ron Carter, Tony Williams (two days after the "Contour" session for Blue Note) July 7, 1965: Roy Haynes, Wayner Shorter, Albert Dailey, Larry Ridley August 22, 1965: Jackie McLean, Charles Tolliver, Larry Wills, Wilber Little, Jack DeJohnette (one month before the "Jacknife" session for BN) May 15, 1966: Freddie Hubbard, Hank Mobley, Ronnie Matthews, Paul Chambers, Philly Joe Jones June 5, 1966: McCoy Tyner, Joe Henderson, Herbie Lewis, Jack DeJohnette Dec. 4, 1966: Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Freddie Hubbard, Ron Carter, Jack DeJohnette A few notes: An exhaustive Joe Henderson discography on the web says there's no known tape of the June 5, 1966, session led by McCoy; also says that Henry Grimes was the bassist rather than Lewis.) Eskelin's intro says that a 5/7/67 appearance by John Coltrane (Pharoah Sanders, Alice Coltrane, Donald Garrett, Rashied Ali) did in fact take place, though speculation had been that it was cancelled. If it did take place, it would have been Trane's last concert. Lewis Porter's biography of Coltrane says that concert was cancelled. Any evidence to suggest that it actually did happen?

Special shout-out to Brownie -- the number of remarkable performances you seem to have heard on the other side of the pond is truly staggering ...

Thanks for the input folks. Re: the Sonny/Max tape. I actually downloaded that from Sonny's website and was shocked when I heard how high it was; I was able to locate another version that was much more accurate (Sonny again sounded like he was playing tenor) and alerted Sonny's web guy, Bret Primack, about the pitch issue. To my knowledge, Bret was able to replace the version on his legitimate site with the pitch-corrected version. Don't know if he's still offering it, but it was there for a while. (I know it was wrong to download from a bootlegger, but I thought in this case, since I had already bought the music legitimately through Sonny's site and was able to point Bret to a better version, I was, in the end, helping the good guys more than the bad guys.)

Anybody familiar with this particular Sonny Rollins Trio concert (Paris, 1965 or 66) on Jazz Way? I'm interested if the pitch is correct; I heard some excerpts that sounded sharp but wasn't in a position to actually check. Here are the details from the extensive Rollins discography on the web: Sonny Rollins (ts) Gilbert Rovere (b) Art Taylor (d) live in Paris, France, 1965 or 1966? I Can't Get Started Jazzway (It) LLM 1501 Three Little Words - St. Thomas - There Will Never Be Another You - When I Grow Too Old To Dream - Mademoiselle De Paris - * Sonny Rollins In Paris (Jazzway (It) LLM 1501)