Why did so many jazz artists end up in Paris?

[carl]

Why was Paris so hip to so many jazz artists in the 40's-70's? This may sounds like a dumb question to ask, but I'm asking away.

Here are two examples: Bud Powell, Dexter Gordon. There are hords of more.

Edited May 31, 2004 by carl

[Hardbopjazz]

Beats always having to go in the back doors at clubs in the States, or having to find a hotel that would allow you to say at it. You could eat where you want, not just places for blacks. There are other reason too. The music was treated as a true art form. Not to say it didn't have some of that here in the United States, but most of Europe see jazz as a true art form.

Edited May 31, 2004 by Hardbopjazz

[carl]

Here are to more cats that spent a good time of their careers in Paris, Don Byas and Ben Webster.

[Alexander]

Um...because Paris is a beautiful city in a beautiful country where artists are appreciated for their talent and not the color of their skin?

Ya think?

[Claude]

Well, that's true of many cities throughout the world. There must be a more specific reason about Paris. It could be just mouth propaganda and musicians not wanting to be alone in foreign city.

Scandinavian countries were also very popular among american jazz artists in the 60's.

England would have been a logical exile (because of the language and the active jazz scene), however I've read once that it was difficult for foreign musicians to work in the UK (except occasional concerts) because of the protectionist local musicians union.

[brownie]

Claude, England was - with quite rare exceptions - a forbidden territory to foreign musicians because of very restrictive musicians unions law.

France was much more open to American musicians, especially black musicians. And the post-WWII spirit was very welcoming to these musicians. People like Don Byas and Sidney Bechet were treated like local heroes. Bechet found a second and much better life over here. His 1952 marriage to his French wife Elisabeth was a national event with the national media giving it the same attention which goes to a royal wedding.

Among other musicians who were in Paris in those years were trumpet players Peanuts Holland, Mezz Mezzrow, Bill Coleman, Kenny Clarke. Later came Lucky Thompson, Allan Eager. Tony Scott, Miles Davis, Lester Young and Billie Holiday also stayed in Paris for extended sojourns. Jackie McLean, Donald Byrd, Steve Lacy, Quincy Jones, Bud Powell and others too.

Each of their appearance drew crowds. And yes Paris is a very beautiful city. No doubt about that!

Dexter Gordon, Stan Getz, Ben Webster, Idrees Sulieman also came to town but they were usually based in Scandinavia, Denmark mostly.

[7/4]

to get to the other side?

[sidewinder]

This is a situation that persisted well into the 1970s. The restrictive laws were very understandable in the context of the time, when even the top names of British jazz were scuffling around in the early 1970s to make a living. Joe Harriott for example, died pretty well destitute, exacerbated by the gigs drying up.

The situation started to improve around the late-70s. Artists such as Clifford Jarvis (a MAJOR catalyst on the UK scene) had started to base themselves here and in the 1980s we started to see people such as Jean Toussaint base themselves here (in Toussaints case, after a season with Blakey at 'Ronnies').

There were some US musicians of course who used the UK as a 'way station'. Chet Baker back in the early 1960s (must have liked our National Health Service ) and - intriguingly - Hank Mobley back in the late 1960s. By all accounts Hank was pretty well near-destitute when Ronnie Scott collected him and he was accomodated courtesy of the club to get him started over here. Maybe it didn't work out with the labour laws with ragard to club engagements (notoriously in short supply then outside of London). Too bad, I've often wondered whether Hank would have stayed on here and made a permanent base. One of the great 'what iffs' of UK jazz ...

As it was, he headed over to Paris and promptly swapped our rain for theirs ....

Edited May 31, 2004 by sidewinder

[patricia]

All that is very true. Paris was the mecca for artists of every kind and they are very appreciative of their artists and their art.

An interesting bit of trivia about another artist who moved to Paris and never went back to the States, the legendary Josephine Baker. She was not a jazz artist, but was a superstar of her time.

My mother lived in London, in the thirties and early forties and she actually sat down and talked to Ms Baker, during Ms Baker's break at the Moulon Rouge in Paris. Mother used to go to Paris regularly, loved art and music and was totally fluent in French.

She told me that Baker stayed in Paris, because they treated her the same way as they treated any other artist, no better, no worse. That's all she ever wanted and I suspect that that is all that jazz artists, like Miles Davis, Bud Powell and the others wanted as well. So, no surprise that they were attracted to Paris.

Edited May 31, 2004 by patricia

[maren]

I immediately thought of Josephine Baker, too. Plus a lot of black American writers: James Baldwin, Richard Wright, Chester Himes. [Which then makes me think of all the white American ex-pat writers: Gertrude Stein (Paris free-er for lesbians, too?), Hemingway, Fitzgerald. And all the Spanish artists: Picasso, Miro. I was going to say "Spanish artists fleeing Franco" but actually they moved to Paris well before that. So -- Paris has been a mecca for artists and intellectuals (Marie Curie coming from Poland?) for a long time...]

And then there's Melvin Van Peebles, who lived in Paris in the 60s writing novels, and made his first movie there: Story of a Three-Day Pass. Scored by Van Peebles and Mickey Baker (of "Mickey and Sylvia", guitarist who wrote "Love is Strange" and a million guitar and arranging instructional books) who was playing jazz in Paris in the 60s and appears in the film...

[chris olivarez]

Along with being treated better wasn't it also easier for them to make a living?

[couw]

I wonder how much the actual military taking care of things after WWII has to do with this. I am not very well informed on this, I believe there were many British soldiers in Paris as well, but was the main contingent American? There were many Canadians in the Netherlands I know, and Russians in the former GDR (duh!)

edit: I took the title of this thread to read "Why did so many american jazz artists end up in Paris?"

Edited May 31, 2004 by couw

[JSngry]

Never overlook the obvious....

[maren]

Never overlook the obvious....

But Chris Olivarez already said it was a matter of being treated better...

[JSngry]

Yeah, but you know how guys are - overlooking the obvious, even IN the obvious, is what we do....

[Hardbopjazz]

So, even IN the obvious, it was better in Paris.