Z-Man Posted July 12, 2004 Report Share Posted July 12, 2004 "The Complete Guide to High-End Audio" by Robert Harley. ISBN 0-9640849-6-1. Excellent chapters on the basics of electricity in the context of audio, digital audio technologies, room acoustics, turntable setup, speaker placement, how tubes and transistors work, critical listening, etc. It really covers all the bases. Especially useful becuase it explains how all this stuff works without a lot of audiophile-speak, and offers ways to improve the sound of your system without spending mega-bucks. Before you make an upgrade to your system, read this book. HIGHLY recommended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Have you gotten to the part where it says to sell me your MacIntosh amp? Do not have it, but heard it's good. I had Laura Dearborne's "Good Sound" and found it helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Bet he lets you know you need to spend lots of money to get "in the group". Kinda like a religious sect. B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Damned unbelievers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Bet he lets you know you need to spend lots of money to get "in the group". Kinda like a religious sect. B) Except for the money part, it's a lot like the free jazz sect. If you don't get it, you can't be one of Chuck's deciples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Except for the money part, it's a lot like the free jazz sect. If you don't get it, you can't be one of Chuck's deciples. Hello, Hello - Dan, is that you? :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmitry Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 It's a pretty good book. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to put together a good-sounding stereo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to put together a good-sounding stereo. That excludes me. I don't ever want to know about "good-sounding stereo". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmitry Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Correction - this book is highly recommended to anyone but Chuck... 2nd edition is the one to get. It introduces the sacd, dvd-a, etc. and it's also been expanded in other topics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Well, every time I buy a CD I'm spending money I don't have, so I won't be making any expensive upgrades to my system. But since the library has a copy, I'll check it out for the "ways to improve the sound of your system without spending mega-bucks". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Well, every time I buy a CD I'm spending money I don't have, so I won't be making any expensive upgrades to my system. But since the library has a copy, I'll check it out for the "ways to improve the sound of your system without spending mega-bucks". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 If you are, even a little bit, handy with a tool box there are some worthwhile DIY projects. Acoustic panels, decent rack , amp upgrades and kit speakers are things I've done. You can also do your own interconnects and speaker cables to good effect. To clarify: In this case You applies to all, but Chuck and whomever else is in his sect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Correction - this book is highly recommended to anyone but Chuck... 2nd edition is the one to get. It introduces the sacd, dvd-a, etc. and it's also been expanded in other topics. Being interested in music and sound, I put music first. Sound is the servant. This reminds me of high school when I had a couple hundred lps and a portable from Sears. My best friend's father had a "state of the art" setup and one Ella, a Brubeck and a few pieces of crap. By my estimation, I won that (undeclared)contest and "heard" more. If you have enough money to put electronics above music, be my guest. In my "professional life" I will put my skills and "sonics" against anyone at any time. The point I want to make is "electronics should be used in the service of music"! It is too easy for some to reverse this order and lose perspective. If you have not recently won the lottery, or scammed unbelievable bucks from elsewhere, buy more music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmitry Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 Is this another poll? Do hi-fi and music automatically exclude one another? Here comes Chuck to wreck his wrath onto a small group of gear-heads. Hide your remote controls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 SHIT!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolff Posted July 13, 2004 Report Share Posted July 13, 2004 (edited) Being interested in music and sound, I put music first. Sound is the servant. This reminds me of high school when I had a couple hundred lps and a portable from Sears. My best friend's father had a "state of the art" setup and one Ella, a Brubeck and a few pieces of crap. By my estimation, I won that (undeclared)contest and "heard" more. If you have enough money to put electronics above music, be my guest. In my "professional life" I will put my skills and "sonics" against anyone at any time. The point I want to make is "electronics should be used in the service of music"! It is too easy for some to reverse this order and lose perspective. If you have not recently won the lottery, or scammed unbelievable bucks from elsewhere, buy more music. I completely agree. Of course, there are people like your friend's father. The 'contest' routine, the worst. Usually it's just a phase they go through. I know some and it gets to be a bore, real quick. If you came to my house with your boom box and 3000 recordings you could add it my recordings and we'd have 6000 to get through. On your boom box or my good sounding stereo, your pick. Electronics should be used in the service of the music. I totally agree. Thing is, to my ears and those of a few others, too much of the electronics today does the music a disservice. Really, some of it is total crap and for a little bit more you can find something that serves the music. But, if someone is happy with a boom box that's great by me. To accuse anyone of something more than a different point of view or taste that does not align with theirs is rude and wrong-headed. How much music is enough, to where buying more is kind of stupid, also? How about the 'my collection is bigger than yours' camp? They have lost their way, also. It's funny watching people check my stuff out. Some go right for the stereo gear and others go right for the music. Interesting. Music is playing in my place constantly. The TV is never on. I think I have my perspective pretty balanced and so do many people I know. Lots of music, but not so much that I do not have room to walk around or ever enjoy, and a stereo that puts out music in a way that sounds fucking good !!! One that's musical and carries me away and can really let me appreciate what musicians are trying to communicate, but let's me afford more music, etc.. "In my "professional life" I will put my skills and "sonics" against anyone at any time." I don't know if I get this statement. Do you mean, 'against the audiophiles'? Fine, you don't need them, cool. No one ever said you had to have them(except your friend's father) . And if others have, screw them. I've read enough of your posts to start to get an understanding and I can relate somewhat in other areas, but when you go flaming a guy for wanting a better stereo that may lead to him enjoying music more, I have to say he's the wrong target of your frustrations(unless he's like your friends father). One of the biggest audiophiles on the planet is Chad (sp) of Acoustic Sounds. Did you know he has a few labels? One of which records under-appreciated blues players. A few you probably know personally, and Hoffman may have worked on these. Music I would have never heard otherwise. Plenty of other examples of audiophiles getting the music out and listened to. Other than the extremes you mentioned, your enemy could be in another location. When did jazz sales start declining? When did music sales start declining? What year? Hint: It was not at the same time high-end stereo sales increased or audiophile records started being pressed. Actually, this is just a rhetorical question, but something to think about. Also, instead of beating them, have you ever thought of joining them? I'm just curious, as I know nothing of the business end of things, but why don't you and your friend from Beehive get your catalogs(or choice titles or ones not in print) released on an audiophile or vinyl only label? Some great music just sitting there, doing nothing for no one. Not being a smart ass, just wondering. Trust me, these guys are in it for the music, too. Just from a different angle. An angle that is not pushing against you. Hope this is not too incoherent, but I hate typing and am eating fried chicken and listening to music at the same time. Edited July 13, 2004 by wolff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundog Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Well said wolff... An informative book that can be had for less than the price of 3 RVGs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeway Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 It's funny watching people check my stuff out. Some go right for the stereo gear and others go right for the music. Interesting. Music is playing in my place constantly. The TV is never on. Wolff, if i ever stop off at your place, I'm heading for the fried chicken first, then the music (LPs first), then the audio kit I agree with you. I don't see why it's either/or when it comes to music and audio. In both areas, balance and a just appreciation of things are the key. I remember reading how Ralph Ellison, who was a devoted adherent of jazz and has written beautifully on the music, stretched his meager writer's budget in order to have an excellent stereo on which to play the music he loved. He felt the MUSIC deserved it. I feel the same way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hockman Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Audiophilia is a dangerous disease if advanced and soon you'll be listening to different pressings of Jazz at the Pawnshop instead of exploring new music if you're not careful. By all means buy and read the book if you want to learn a bit more about the technical side of audio. I would take everything that Harley says with a big pinch of salt though. Either he is deaf or on the take, but his reviews of equipment usually do not conform to my opinion. I usually hate the stuff that he "likes". Also if you read his past reviews in Stereophile and other hi fi comics, he uses audiophile crap instead of "real" world albums in auditioning gear. Don't forget that it's about the music, not the gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kulu se mama Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 i've never had a "great" system, although i am well over 5k cd's at this point. lately, i find that i listen to most of my music on my bose wave radio in the computer room (and it's not even the acoustic wave). it sounds good enough to me. besides i have to buy "london calling" for the 3rd time, and "one flight up" for the 2nd time. who has money to upgrade their system when there are so many cd's to upgrade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Well, personally, I'd love to have a much better system than I have now, but I don't see the financial possibilities in my near future. On the other hand, I can spare $10 to $15 for a new disc once in a while. I guess it's a matter of practicality for me, so if I ever sound "anti-system", take it with a grain of salt... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 (edited) hockman is right: audiophilia is a dangerous disease to contract. However, I find that judicious choice of equipment yields great enjoyment with music, and I have LITERALLY been spending what some spend on a car payment on stereo equipment and music (and going without a car) for nearly a decade now and my life is richer for it. I find it makes even the worst privately recorded live gigs sound a little better and the best masterings and recordings sound fantastic. I don't listen to just the good sounding discs, I don't own "Jazz at the Pawnshop" in any form! Hey, I've bought instruments too, so I'm attacking it from another angle as well. I respect everyone's viewpoint here in this thread. I'm stuck with mine, happily. Edited July 14, 2004 by jazzbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJ Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 (edited) I agree, to each their own. I never expected to spend what I spent on my recent listening set-up, but the more I listened the more I felt the music deserved that type of presentation. It's not automatically "the more expensive the equipment, the better" for sure, but I will say that when you find the sound that appeals to you it's hard not to go for it if you have the means, and cost becomes secondary. It utterly, completely IS all about the music - when you can listen to a CD you've listened to a million times and suddenly feel you're actually hearing the music, that is worth the sound system investment to me. An example: VERY SAXY (Prestige). Four great tenors blowing up a storm, Ms. Shirely Scott at the organ. On my new system, you can IMMEDIATELY hear huge differences among the tenors - everything just sounds REAL. You can get a sense of their tonguing, when they are overblowing, hear subtle grace notes you never heard before, etc. Finally, they all sound utterly individual and you can start to pick out differences between players who sounded more similar, even generic, on a less musical system. These are all such critical elements of style that I can't really see the argument about "sound over music." Hearing these details IS hearing the actual music rather than a cheap facsimile. On my old system, all the tenors basically sounded very much the same in terms of the sound detail (even though you could of course hear phrasing differences). Plus, the organ sounds so vivid now - not like a roller rink or a rumble at the bottom end like it used to, but a complex, dynamic sound. You can also close your eyes and see where everyone is standing or sitting, since the soundstage and depth are accurately reproduced. Another great example: on a recording I have literally listened to hundreds of time, KIND OF BLUE, on some tracks when Coltrane plays in higher register and Cannon plays in lower register, the sounds of their instruments (timbre) sounded very much the same to me on my old system - although most of the time their phrasing and concept were so different you could still pick them out, at times it was surprisingly hard for me (maybe I'm just stupid, but I've always been crossed up at times on this record for some reason). On my new system, NO CHANCE of ever getting confused - damn, the alto sounds like an alto, and the tenor sounds like a tenor - both natural sounds I'm very familiar with from jamming at home with my dad - even when the playing registers start to overlap! The complexity of the horn's sounds, which gives them their uniqueness, is captured. It's remarkable, and for someone like me without any real good live jazz venues near enough to frequent with a one-year old, it's such a pleasure to get (wink wink Chuck) into the music this way! My system was pricey, but I think I could have assembled something close to this level (and made a vast improvement over what I had) for much less - once you get to a certain point, small differences cost a lot. At the risk of becoming a fanatic, you owe it to yourself to check out tube DACs and amps, a good CD transport, and some sensitive, tube friendly speakers (still waiting for my amp, being assembled as we speak - even with just the DAC and speakers and my old Denon amp I'm in heaven, but can't wait to hear what I heard in the dealer listening room with the same speakers and DAC plus the tube amp!). One last note: much of my happiness at a technical level, I don't claim to understand or care about. I can proudly say that in buying equipment, I've never looked at a bar graph or plot and said "that's what I want." Just listen. Having said that, I will say that I am starting to wonder if the craze for up and oversampling and other filtering processes in CD players hasn't taken everything several giant steps back. The tube DAC I have uses "1x oversampling" - in other words, the signal comes straight from the disc, without any up or oversampling. Even older CDs that I used to think sounded crappy on my old system sound spectacular on this set up. Edited July 14, 2004 by DrJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Can't wait to hear how happy you'll be once you get your amp Tony! Yes, I think that the simplification of the DAC that your Audio Note espouses (as does my modified Sony universal player from Decware to an extent) makes for great sonic enjoyment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Wood Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Audiophiles, at least the ones I come across, rarely seem to have interesting tastes in music. Or wide ranging. I knew two people who were avid collectors of tube equiptment, and one had a very nice jazz collection, vinyl and cd, but whenever I had a conversation with him regarding the music, it always seemed to be lost on him what the artist was saying or expressing with his music than how it sounded. The other guy is a basket case. I go to him only to get NOS tubes and such. He has a room the width of his house devoted to his collection of tube gear. I was fortunate to hear a wide range of sounds of equiptment, but I'll be damned if I have to hear Night Ranger on a pair of Quad speakers again! Lon, I still am drooling at the Zen Select, but I just can't seem to pull the trigger on it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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