Miles Davis & Sam Rivers

[JSngry]

From Robert Palmer's 1975 liner notes to INVOLUTION (BN-LA453-HZ):

In 1964, Rivers went on the road with blues guitarist T-Bone Walker. "T-Bone and all the other blues artists who hired me just wanted to to play the blues to the best of my ability," he says. "They weren't talking about stand up there and honk. They were talking about stand up there and play the blues."

In the middle of the tour with Walker, Rivers recieved a telegram from Tony Williams... "Come to New York," the message began, George Coleman...split. Miles wants you to join his group." Williams had played Davis tapes of the Rivers quartet from Harvard Square and the trumpeter had liked what he heard. Sam stayed with the Davis band...for six months, touring Japan...and the U'S. "Miles was still doing things that were...pretty straight", he recalls. "I was there, but I was somewhere else too. I guess it sounds funny, but I was already ahead of that. I kept stretching out and playing really long solos, and that's probably why I didn't last. We recorded an album in Japan, and then when we got back to New York, Miles got Wayne Shorter."

For a revealing (from several perspectives) glimpse of how Rivers might have sounded with T-Bone, check out his solo (and composition) on "The Elder Speaks" on the 12-14-61 Tadd Dameron date included on Blue Note's THE LOST SESSIONS.

As far as the "transfer" to Wayne Shorter form Blakey, please remember that "transfer" and "exchange" are not the same thing.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

And while I haven't done extensive research into the activities of Hill or Rivers during this period, what I do know doesn't fit in -

2/24/65 - Hill in Toronto without Rivers (Hutcherson, McBee, Chambers)

5/23/65 - Rivers in Baltimore without Hill (Hancock, Carter, Williams)

9/65 - Rivers in NYC without Hill (Grimes, Williams)

11?/65 - Hill in NYC without Rivers (solo piano?)

2?/66 - Rivers in Boston without Hill (Galper, Phil Morrison, Steve Ellington)

BUT FINALLY !

3/66 - Hill in San Francisco with Rivers

8/21/66 - Hill in Baltimore with Rivers (Richard Davis, Chambers) - but group did not show

Mike

[Guy Berger]

While waiting it might be a good time to try and define in words what is meant by "inside" and "outside" playing in the context of the band. Inside the chord changes, or staying near the melody? Swing time, rubato or pulse rhythms? Where does blues expressiveness end and freer expressiveness begin? Since Miles band in this period was also going towards modes as a primary means of organizing the improvisations, may it have been that was too "lean" on musical material for Rivers to fully realize the sounds he was hearing and trying to get out the horn?

Miles mid-60's bands were not THAT commercial. 15 minute versions of "My Funny Valentine"? The "time, no changes" feel of that classic rhythm section?

Questions for discussion.

One more thought to add to Lazaro's -- listen to Miles's live recordings once Shorter joined the band (as early as September '64) and compare them to what Sam was doing on his BN albums.

Guy

[jazzbo]

I wouldn't be surprised to find that there were NONmusical reasons at play as is often the case in musical groupings (and Miles is no stranger to conflict among band members). Perhaps Miles didn't like NOT being the only old man in the group. Shorter fit in more with the age grouping of the rest of the band, Rivers did not. Maybe Miles couldn't lord it over Sam in the way he may have wanted to. Maybe Sam and Tony had a deeper relationship than Miles wished the two to have and he felt challenged by it.

Either way I'd like there to be more of Sam in the group to hear, but if there isn't (I have three shows altogether to hear) so be it. We've got what followed.

[JSngry]

Another consideration is that there are any number of different wasy to play "out" (which, like "avabt-garde", is one of those terms that has merit in general conversation but no real musical meaning). The way Sam player "out" and the way Wayne did it were two different beasts, and Miles obviously preferred Wayne's, at least for his band (and I think Lon is right about the "non-musical" reasons, and I think that that came into play as far as Miles' reaction to Sam as a member of his band as opposed to as a musician in general).

I also think that Miles was going to gat Wayne whenever, whereever, and however. That's pretty obvious from the various anecdotal histories.

[mikeweil]

Very much agree with you, Jim!

There is no mention of Rivers in Michael Fitzgerald's Chronology of Art Blakey. As far as Rivers' tenure with T-Bone Walker is concerned - as a pro you play any kind of gig if you need money. But you expect different things to happen in this band compared to Miles' quintet with its rather open approach. Miles really may have wnated to be the "old man", i.e. leader of the band, and Sam's natural authority and dexterity and his bonds with Tony may have been too much. Furthermore, being a Gemini, there is always a tension between conservative and progressive strains in Miles' music - he wanted to take the music further out, but not as far out as Ornette or Trane or Cecil Taylor. And Rivers and Tony certainly could have done that - Tony wanted to play with Cecil at the time. But he was still so young and perhaps couldn't quite make up his mind.

I think Miles was real mad at the loss of Trane, and Shorter was the closest, he had wanted him as early as 1960 when he had just joined the Messengers. But at the same time Shorter stayed inside enough to make it easier for Miles. I always think Shorter observed Trane's path and decided not to follow him, for various reasons.

[jazzbo]

Yes, I think Miles had decided on Wayne and was going to get Wayne to complete his group of Young Lions. . . . Wayne had both the sort of mainstream jazz jobbing experience Miles could relate to, AND that Trane friendship and kindred/if maybe a few times removed exploratory track record. . . .

PLUS Miles and Wayne had performed and recorded before (the 1962 Dorough session at least, probably other occasions) and he KNEW what the man was capable of and bring to the band, and he could weigh that against Sam's performances every occasion. . . !

Edited July 19, 2004 by jazzbo

[MartyJazz]

Furthermore, being a Gemini, there is always a tension between conservative and progressive strains in Miles' music - he wanted to take the music further out, but not as far out as Ornette or Trane or Cecil Taylor.

WTF does that astrological stuff have to do with anything?

I do believe that it was a combination of personalities, Miles' tastes and Miles' desire for Wayne that was at the core of Rivers' short lived tenure with the group. Regarding Miles' highly subjective tastes, all one has to do is look at his very outspoken opinions of various musicians' efforts during a few earlier blindfold tests conducted by Leonard Feather. He could be extremely critical, knocking Eric Dolphy, the one time collaboration of Duke with Max and Mingus, etc. It is quite probable that he didn't take to Rivers' pushing of the envelope, e.g., Sam's great (to my ears anyway) solo on "All of You" from the Japanese CBS release of the July '64 Tokyo concert.

[mikeweil]

Furthermore, being a Gemini, there is always a tension between conservative and progressive strains in Miles' music - he wanted to take the music further out, but not as far out as Ornette or Trane or Cecil Taylor.

WTF does that astrological stuff have to do with anything?

I just think his astrological chart mirrors his personality - this way it works out nicely in many cases.

[ghost of miles]

5/23/65 - Rivers in Baltimore without Hill (Hancock, Carter, Williams)

Saw mention of this in Cuscuna's liner notes when I re-read the Rivers Mosaic booklet last night. It was a Left Bank gig; has it ever surfaced on tape?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I've never heard it - but they did tape (everything? most things? some things?) at Left Bank, so I wouldn't give up hope.

Incidentally, the only intersection of Rivers and Blakey I have right now is at the Grande Parade du Jazz in Nice, July 1988 when Rivers was performing with Dizzy, and Blakey was in the audience for their set.

Mike

[Lazaro Vega]

For what it is worth, Sam Rivers toured with Dizzy Gillespie in the 1980's and they came through Grand Rapids -- a club date, two hours of music, at least. Impressions? Rivers looked like a needle wrapped in brown leather -- he's rail thin. Musically, he played himself, but didn't play at the extremes of register he's capable of, just really fit with the band. It was cool. (Ed Cherry was on that group, maybe Will Lee on electric bass, but can't remember for sure).

[Michael Fitzgerald]

John Lee, not Will Lee. Ignacio Berroa on drums most likely. I saw that band several times, as well as when Dizzy played Carnegie Hall with the quintet forming the basis for his big band. That was on John Lee's birthday, June 28.

Mike

[ADR]

What follows is from a 1997 interview of Sam Rivers by Ted Panken. The entire interview is located in the "Library" portion of the Jazz Journalist Association's web site.

"Tony Williams got me with Miles. He had these tapes that he had done with me in Boston, so he said, "Miles, I want you to hear this tape." Miles said, "yeah, okay, later." He kept doing that. So finally, one day he trapped Miles. "Okay, go ahead, play it!" Tony said he heard the first track and he said, "Call him up. Get him up here right now." So he called me. I was on the road with T-Bone Walker, and he called me and said, "George quit; Miles wants you to join the band." I was out there on the road someplace. So I left T-Bone Walker to join Miles Davis.

But the thing is, there's always been this story out how much advanced I was, that Miles wasn't happy with my style. It wasn't that at all. Miles was right there with it. He understood. He could hear what I was doing. It wasn't a problem at all. The thing was that he had already been committed to Wayne Shorter. So the deal was that when Wayne left Art Blakey, I was supposed to go with Art Blakey, and it was supposed to be a trade like that. But I didn't want to go with Art Blakey. I went with Andrew Hill instead. So we went on tour with Andrew Hill, and that's the way it went down. It wasn't anything about me being much more advanced than Miles. Miles was just as advanced. In certain ways he wanted to produce his free stuff, which is what he did in Bitches Brew and everything. All these things are pretty much free over the static rhythm, like I mentioned before. So he wanted to make sure that I projected the music to the public, and reach a wider audience."

So there it is - even more evidence that as far as Sam River's was concerned the reason he did not remain with Miles is simply that he was viewed all along by Miles as simply a stop-gap until Wayne Shorter became available.

Edited July 19, 2004 by ADR

[MartyJazz]

For what it is worth, Sam Rivers toured with Dizzy Gillespie in the 1980's and they came through Grand Rapids -- a club date, two hours of music, at least. Impressions? Rivers looked like a needle wrapped in brown leather -- he's rail thin. Musically, he played himself, but didn't play at the extremes of register he's capable of, just really fit with the band. It was cool. (Ed Cherry was on that group, maybe Will Lee on electric bass, but can't remember for sure).

I have a video of that group off of some PBS channel quite a few years ago.

[MartyJazz]

What follows is from a 1997 interview of Sam Rivers by Ted Panken. The entire interview is located in the "Library" portion of the Jazz Journalist Association's web site.

"Tony Williams got me with Miles. He had these tapes that he had done with me in Boston, so he said, "Miles, I want you to hear this tape." Miles said, "yeah, okay, later." He kept doing that. So finally, one day he trapped Miles. "Okay, go ahead, play it!" Tony said he heard the first track and he said, "Call him up. Get him up here right now." So he called me. I was on the road with T-Bone Walker, and he called me and said, "George quit; Miles wants you to join the band." I was out there on the road someplace. So I left T-Bone Walker to join Miles Davis.

But the thing is, there's always been this story out how much advanced I was, that Miles wasn't happy with my style. It wasn't that at all. Miles was right there with it. He understood. He could hear what I was doing. It wasn't a problem at all. The thing was that he had already been committed to Wayne Shorter. So the deal was that when Wayne left Art Blakey, I was supposed to go with Art Blakey, and it was supposed to be a trade like that. But I didn't want to go with Art Blakey. I went with Andrew Hill instead. So we went on tour with Andrew Hill, and that's the way it went down. It wasn't anything about me being much more advanced than Miles. Miles was just as advanced. In certain ways he wanted to produce his free stuff, which is what he did in Bitches Brew and everything. All these things are pretty much free over the static rhythm, like I mentioned before. So he wanted to make sure that I projected the music to the public, and reach a wider audience."

So there it is - even more evidence that as far as Sam River's was concerned the reason he did not remain with Miles is simply that he was viewed all along by Miles as simply a stop-gap until Wayne Shorter became available.

That also backs my recollection of Sam telling me that he was enthusiastic about hooking up with Andrew Hill thereafter. Thanks for that post.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

The Dizzy show on TV was probably the Monmouth Battlefield State Park gig that I attended in 1987. They filmed that for NJN. It was a beautiful setting. Fathead Newman played first.

Mike

Edited July 19, 2004 by Michael Fitzgerald

[JSngry]

The differences in Sam's 1975 and 1997 stories are certainly, uh.... INTERESTING!

[ghost of miles]

The differences in Sam's 1975 and 1997 stories are certainly, uh.... INTERESTING!

That's what I thought too, Jim! The comment I couldn't "source" many posts back was indeed from the INVOLUTION liners, which are partially replicated in the Mosaic booklet... either Sam was misquoted the first time around, or he came to view the experience with Miles differently. Fascinating stuff... in any event, I went back and listened to FUSCHIA SWING SONG last night. God, what an album!

[.:.impossible]

5/23/65 - Rivers in Baltimore without Hill (Hancock, Carter, Williams)

Saw mention of this in Cuscuna's liner notes when I re-read the Rivers Mosaic booklet last night. It was a Left Bank gig; has it ever surfaced on tape?

I contacted Joel Dorn regarding this date a few years back when he was releasing the Left Bank recordings on LABEL M. He called me up and told me that he had no plans to release it. It sounded like he was having trouble with sales at the time...

Thanks for the post Mr. Robinson!

[blue lake]

"John Lee, not Will Lee." Thanks Micheal, that's right: I see his face, but get those names confused. John played electric, and Will is Spike Lee's dad, right? What an exciting group Diz had in that period.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Uh oh -

Will Lee is the white, blonde haired electric bassist, best known as a charter member of the David Letterman band led by Paul Shaffer. He does have jazz chops and played in Dreams with Billy Cobham, the Breckers, Abercrombie, etc.

http://www.willlee.com/biography.php

His father is Dr. William F. Lee, former bigwig at University of Miami and IAJE and author of People In Jazz - credited to Bill Lee (plus other books on Kenton, Maynard, etc.). He's a piano player.

Now, Spike Lee's father is Bill Lee - the bassist who worked with Josh White, Odetta, John Handy, various Chicago folks, etc.

http://home.att.net/~soundart/11_billlee.htm

John Lee is the black electric bassist - pretty sure he is not related to any of the above.

http://www.dizzyalumni.com/artistpages/leeframe.htm

Mike

[ADR]

I contacted Joel Dorn regarding this date a few years back when he was releasing the Left Bank recordings on LABEL M. He called me up and told me that he had no plans to release it. It sounded like he was having trouble with sales at the time...

Thanks for the post Mr. Robinson!

You're welcome Cary.

I still check in here from time to time - but not as often as I would like (the work schedule is a bear these days).

I have always been fascinated with the circumstances surrounding Sam River's tenure with Miles' second classic quintet. I can't wait to get my greedy little hands on the Seven Steps box set this fall and listen to the Tokyo concert. I've intentionally held off on picking up copy of the Tokyo concert in anticipation of the box.

Hope thing are going well for you and the Mrs. up in New England and that you are still taking advantage of your proximity to so much great live jazz.

ADR

[MartyJazz]

I have always been fascinated with  the circumstances surrounding Sam River's tenure with Miles' second classic quintet.  I can't wait to get my greedy little hands on the Seven Steps box set this fall and listen to the Tokyo concert.  I've intentionally held off on picking up copy of the Tokyo concert in anticipation of the box.

ADR

The Tokyo concert has always been one of my favorite Miles sessions from the mid '60s. Miles is in great form and Sam sounds terrific IMO. The version of "All of You" that closes the concert gives me goosebumps every time I hear it, especially when Sam briefly takes it out and then comes right back in. If in fact Miles really didn't dig Sam's playing, I'm at a loss to understand why. Also, I think the version of "So What" to open the concert is a killer.

Edited July 20, 2004 by MartyJazz

[alankin]

Uh oh -

Will Lee is the white, blonde haired electric bassist, best known as a charter member of the David Letterman band led by Paul Shaffer. He does have jazz chops and played in Dreams with Billy Cobham, the Breckers, Abercrombie, etc.

http://www.willlee.com/biography.php

His father is Dr. William F. Lee, former bigwig at University of Miami and IAJE and author of People In Jazz - credited to Bill Lee (plus other books on Kenton, Maynard, etc.). He's a piano player.

Now, Spike Lee's father is Bill Lee - the bassist who worked with Josh White, Odetta, John Handy, various Chicago folks, etc. 

http://home.att.net/~soundart/11_billlee.htm

John Lee is the black electric bassist - pretty sure he is not related to any of the above.

http://www.dizzyalumni.com/artistpages/leeframe.htm

Mike

None of whom are related to Stan Lee.

[sorry, I couldn't resist!]

Edited July 23, 2004 by alankin