wesbed Posted July 19, 2004 Report Share Posted July 19, 2004 (edited) I'm considering the purchase of the 'old' Woody Herman Mosaic box, the Capitol Sessions. I've been in a West Coast big band mood for the past several weeks. My interest in the Woody Herman Capitol box has been heightened due to my recent purchase of the Kenton Presents Mosaic and the recent announcement of the 'new' Woody Herman Columbia box. Woody Herman Capitol Mosaic I've read various posts about the Woody Herman Capitol box having lots of vocals, vocals by Herman that aren't good. I'm not offended by vocals if they are 'jazz' vocals. I like Jack Teagarden's 'old timey' vocals. I like Rosolino's somewhat goofy vocals on the Kenton Presents box. How many vocal tunes are included on the Woody Herman Capitol Mosaic? What percentage of the box is vocals, approximately? How 'bad' is Woody (regarding his voice)? Is there another jazz singer that Woody Herman could be compared to for reference? Edited January 28, 2005 by wesbed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 If I was doing this again, I would find the Capitol Jazz cd called 'Keeper of the Flame' and let the rest go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesbed Posted July 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 It's interesting that the samples on the Mosaic site don't offer any of the vocal tunes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceH Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 The Woody Herman band certainly recorded their fair share of novelty and outright "pop" tunes, vocal and otherwise. They're just part of the mix. Actually, they start to grow on you; sure, like mold maybe, but hey, bands had to record stuff like that to stay out of bankruptcy. Fact of life. Not all of the Ellington band's vocal ditties are timeless gems either, IMHO. Herman's worst novelty tunes don't annoy me nearly as much as Glen Miller's. Just my two cents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesbed Posted July 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Recently, I've been listening to the Kenton Presents Mosaic, the Shank/Cooper Select, and the Gerald Wilson Mosaic. I caught myself, to my surprise, listening to (and enjoying) the 1960s pop tunes recorded by Gerald Wilson. I did a check-through at Amazon and CDUniverse but was not successful at locating a sample of Woody Herman's vocals. At the same time, I place a lot of trust in Mosaic's sets. I've yet to have a bad experience. There is a female vocalist on the Woody Herman Capitol box as well as Herman (if I recall the discography correctly). What's her style? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clandy44 Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 I agree with BruceH. When I first got the "old" Woody, I was put off by some cheesy Dixieland stuff and Woody's attept to do some early rock and roll numbers in a semi-jazzy style. But, repeated listenings have persuaded me that this box is well worth getting. First, I should say that I like Woody's vocals for the most part. Second, I admire his guts in taking on a variety of new musical themes rather than playing the same old style. He reminds me of a creative football coach (not Spurrier) who adapts his play book to his personnel. All in all, I recommend the set if you like big band music which is tightly arranged and well played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 I have mixed feelings about this box and the reason I do is because of Woody's vocals. I find them hard to take. I usually listened a bit but then skipped over them. The pure instrumentals are however fantastic. Since the vocals make up a good part of the box, that's why I have mixed feelings. I'll be accused of being a rascist, but I just don't like the way white guys sing. I had the same feeling about the male vocalists in the Kenton box and I just don't like that style of singing. Woody is better than Kenton's vocalists however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertblues Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 I agree with Brad's assessment of those vocals. To me, the Capitol set has about 3 1/2 discs of great stuff (out of 6 cds). One of the hazards of complete sets like Mosaic is you get the so-so sides as well as the good ones. I'm still gonna buy the new one - but it is even more loaded with Woody's nasal "singing" than the Capitol, as best I can tell! Actually, I find those songs ok in small doses, but over the course of 7 cds it's hard to take...(too bad we can't get a "complete instrumental Woody Herman set). -_- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.D. Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 too bad we can't get a "complete instrumental Woody Herman set). -_- If we did we'd miss out on a great deal of excellent and exciting music. A columbia set without Caldonia.. What kind of "Woody" would that be without that wall of trumpets????????? Plenty other examples About one third of the Mosaic has vocals by Woody, but that count includes things like " Your Father's Mustache"... hardly a " vocal" and your listening pleasure would be less without this track too. Woody's vocals don't bother me on the blues and " novelty" numbers like " Fathers". The slow ballads are a bit more difficult, but again you would miss out on some great solos by the band members. There are more vocals in the set.. by the " girl singer" that seemed to be a standard requirement of " big bands" But a well organised reissue of this music has long been overdue. Last years Blowin' Up a Storm set, which I did not buy ( thank the Big Guy), thinking correctly,( thank the Big Guy again) that someone would finally treat this music with the respect it deserved, or ultimately Classics would get there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceH Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Some of the more questionable vocal tracks are one of the reasons for the 'skip' button on your CD player. Never fails to work for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesbed Posted July 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Are the Herman vocals based in 'jazz?' I'll admit to enjoying Frank Rosolino's vocals on the Kenton Presents Mosaic. His vocals are quirky but I enjoy listening to him because he sounds like he's having a hell of a good time. Not taking himself too seriuosly. As if he knew he couldn't sing but he was still going to have a good time trying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.D. Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 Are the Herman vocals based in 'jazz?' Do Bears.... ?????? Of course it depends on what you consider " Vocal Jazz" Woody's attempts are a hell of a lot better than Rosolino's, and maybe closer to the mark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 20, 2004 Report Share Posted July 20, 2004 I don't have any real problems with Woody's vocals, though some are now in questionable taste (racist). I just think the best music is on the disc I mentioned and the box is a bunch of bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.D. Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 OOPs, I jumped in, thinking this was about the upcoming Mosaic Columbia set.... Forget the Capitol invest in the Columbia.. and you can follow Chuck's suggestion on the Capitols, unless you become a total Woody nut. Herman's best two recording periods were the Columbias and then the mid 60's Phillips.. which would be nice to have a complete set of too.. Capitol seemed to have a weird effect on Jazz bands, especially the Big ones. Dukes output during his stay with them has some less than necessary items Maybe the executives wanted more Ray Anthony's....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Somewhat related, is Woody's Winners still in reissue limbo? Forgot the status (OOP, etc.) on this one, but I do know I'd love to hear a tasty remaster of it. The few tracks I have (from a Columbia comp.) are outstanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesbed Posted July 21, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 Oh well. I purchased the Woody Herman 'Capitol' box last night. I decided to get the Capitol box since the Herman Columbia box will be available for the next several years. I have good luck with Mosaic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.D. Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 (edited) Somewhat related, is Woody's Winners still in reissue limbo? Forgot the status (OOP, etc.) on this one, but I do know I'd love to hear a tasty remaster of it. The few tracks I have (from a Columbia comp.) are outstanding. There was a single CD of it.. maybe on Koch But you can find it along with "Jazz Hoot" on Collectables Col CD 6678 Jazz Hoot has spme good tracks, but it was a comp. of left overs from other sessions. Winners however is definitely a winner. for $6.98 How can you lose? Edited July 21, 2004 by P.D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 The problem (if that's the way to put it) about stopping with "Keeper of the Flame," though that's more or less what I've done myself, is that "Keeper" covers the latter days of the Second Herd, and the Third Herd (which is what's on most of the Mosaic set) was a band with a different flavor. I prefer the Second Herd, if I had to choose, but the Third Herd had definite attractions, with its well-matched Pres-drenched tenorman, Bill Perkins and Richie Kamuca, bass trumpeter Cy Touff, a cooking rhythm section sparked by drummer Chuck Flores, and lots of esprit de corps (though it stopped well-short of the IMO rather artifical flash and peppiness of the Bill Chase/Phil Wilson Phillips era). I'd probably have sprung for the Mosaic Capitol, except that a year or so back I found a playable copy of "Jackpot," the Capitol set by the octet with Kamuca and Touff that Woody played Vegas with in '55. Recorded within days of the celebrated Touff-Kamuca Pacific Jazz date, it has much the same relaxed/urgent feel -- at its best it may be even groovier. One of the first records I ever bought (back when it came out), and lack of it might have have been enough to push me into getting the Capitol Mosiac. On the other hand, vague but fond memories of the Third Herd's version of Horace's "Opus de Funk" (from the "Road Band" album) are still nuding my hand toward the "order" button. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 I meant "nudging my hand," not "nuding" it -- although "nuding my hand" does bring a strange image to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceH Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Aw, c'mon Larry, you know you really need that Capitol Herman Mosaic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesbed Posted July 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Aw, c'mon Larry, you know you really need that Capitol Herman Mosaic. Yeah, Larry. C'mon, man! Jump in and get the Woody Herman Capitol Mosaic. My complaint about the Woody Herman Capitol, without yet having received my copy, is that it's not a part of the Malcolm Addey Series. Where's Malcolm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Winners, however, is definitely a winner. for $6.98 How can you lose? Let me just say, about this album: You haven't lived if you've never heard Bill Chase's "23 Red." No wonder Cook & Morton are crazy about this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceH Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 I KNEW it! I always suspected that I haven't lived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 I KNEW it! I always suspected that I haven't lived. same for me! although I guess one fine day I'll finally start living... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Late Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 All hyperbole aside, it truly is a great track. You can almost feel the excitement in the air that night (San Francisco's Basin Street West), and when Chase comes in on that screaming high note for his solo ... wow. Individually, the trumpet players in this band may not have been the most compelling of soloists (though their improvisations are still fine), but collectively, I'd say they could stand with any of the finest big band trumpet sections, past or present. I know I'm taking this thread on something of a tangent, but did anyone here ever hear this band (the '65 Herd) live? No need for a pacemaker; this band gets your blood flowing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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