The Guitar in jazz.

[Hardbopjazz]

Do you think the guitar has the respectability in jazz as other instruments? For many years it didn't play a prominent role. Has it caught with the tenor sax or trumpet as a jazz instrument? I think it has. I feel the guitar from the early 60's and back was overlooked in jazz. It took very innovative musicians to give it respectability to the rest of the jazz community (musicians).

[Jim R]

This is a question that has been around for a long time. Very subjective, it seems to me, and probably less relevant than it used to be. Obviously, the guitar has gained a stronger foothold in our culture in general over the past few decades. I don't know if it's "caught up" with the saxophone or the trumpet... not even sure how you would determine that.

One thing that bothers me is the way a lot of jazz fans want to lump all archtop players into one big heap, and suggest that they all pretty much sound the same. I've encountered this on a couple of discussion boards over the years. Of course (as with any other instrument category) many of them do sound very similar, but if somebody can't distinguish, say, Barney Kessel's sound from Kenny Burrell's, then they probably aren't devoting enough time and attention. If they don't want to devote the attention, that's understandable, but then they probably shouldn't be making such broad statements.

There's also the longstanding image of a guitrist as a purely supporting player, a sideman, an afterthought, which is pretty hard to shake completely. When the average person is asked to list the instruments used in most jazz groups, what will the typical answer be? Probably misc horns (sax and trumpet in the forefront), piano, bass and drums. Is that still an accurate assessment? I doubt it, but then as I said above, I'm not sure how to make a determination.

Is the guitar "respected"? I'm sure it still depends on who you ask. I don't think it's fair to say that it was "overlooked from the early 60's and back". More like the early 50's and back, IMO.

[jazzbo]

There's been guitar in jazz bands from the days before jazz recording began, playing quite an important role in the New Orleans bands as far as I can tell, and in the California jazz of the time too.

And then guys like Lonnie Johnson and Eddie Lang made jazz guitar KNOWN in the twenties. Then Django. . . well Django was certainly a prominent figure! In the thirties there were nice recordings in which guitarists such as Dick McDonough, Carl Kress, Carmen Mastren, Freddie Guy, Freedie Green and others played an important part.

When I hear guys talking of "jazz guitar" they usually mean electric jazz guitar. . . . But that's not necessarily what I always think, I usually think of Eddie Lang first for some reason. . . .

[Jim R]

When I hear guys talking of "jazz guitar" they usually mean electric jazz guitar. . .

Right- they usually mean the music made with amplified archtops (full depth hollowbodies). My contention is that many folks who are not enamored of that (general) sound tend to lump almost everybody together. Or, if they do dig it, they don't often enough learn to distinguish between some of the major voices. Oh well, I know that requires a certain level of passion.

Lon, you remind me of another issue, which is minor but annoying to me. Another thing I've encounterd on discussion boards is a tendency to use the term "electric guitar" to refer to fusion/post-fusion players who often use electronic effects. As though it's understood that the "electric" guitar came along in 1967. "I like Charlie Christian and Wes Montgomery, but my main thing is electric gutarists".

[Joe G]

One problem traditionally with jazz guitarists is a rather stiff way of phrasing. I've heard some older recordings were the guitar solo sounded like "plinka plinka plinka plinka...... " It would sound totally ridiculous for a horn player to play like that. I think Wes was one who made big strides in bringing the guitar up to where the other instruments already were in terms of modern jazz phrasing. The guitar is not naturally set up to function as a bebop instrument (the language is keyboard and horn-based), so it's a challenge to make it work.

[Sundog]

As a rhythm instrument I really prefer the sound of the guitar over a piano. In the right hands, the voicings that can be achieved are so much more open sounding and complex than a piano. Of course their aren't many players with the dexterity and creativity to pull this off consistently. Additionally, IMO few guitar players actually exploit this strength. Most are more interested in concentrating on soloing and when asked to comp behind a soloist they rely on more common approaches which a pianist can do perfectly well, thereby reinforcing the stereotype that pianists are better rhythm players.

[jazzbo]

Yes, Sundoq, I agree that the guitar as a rhythm instrument can be very great. . . but I still love the piano, I'm not sure I think the guitar is superior in any way, it's just apples and oranges I guess.

What do you think of Marty Grosz? I think he's a master accompanist in this manner, and though a good soloist, it's not all about the solo with him, I love the balance. . . .

[Sundog]

Yes, Sundoq, I agree that the guitar as a rhythm instrument can be very great. .  . but I still love the piano, I'm not sure I think the guitar is superior in any way, it's just apples and oranges I guess.

What do you think of Marty Grosz?  I think he's a master accompanist in this manner, and though a good soloist, it's not all about the solo with him, I love the balance. . . .

Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy piano in the rhythm section very much. I was just listening to the Miles At The Blackhawk material the other day and was totally blown away by Wyton Kelly's mastery. He swings so hard, and really drives the soloists to higher levels with his own highly refined unique brand of comping. It's a joy to hear. I really don't consider one instrument better than another. All other things equal (and they rarely are), I believe the guitar is more flexible because of the way it's tuned as opposed to a piano. That's all I was really trying to say.

The two players that immediately come to mind when I think of exceptionally creative rhythm players are Jim Hall and Barry Galbraith. I would also give Pat Metheny some "props" in this category. There's a real palpable energy that comes out in Pat's rhythm playing (especially acoustic) that I've rarely experienced in other players. He's coming from a totally different point of view than Jim & Barry but I find him equally enjoyable.

Regarding Marty Grosz is must admit that I have not really been exposed to his music. I know you have mentioned him before and he's on my long list of artists to check out. Can you recommend an album that characterizes his style?

[chris olivarez]

I think the guitar is probably still looked down on by purists but it has become more mainstream and perhaps not judged as harshly as it has been in the past. Maybe part of the negativity came about from the early days of rock n' roll and I bet that jazz musicians who picked up the electric instrument where probably lumped together with the barbarian rockers by some members of the jazz community.

I realize that the guitar was established as a solo jazz instrument prior to rock but I cant help but feel that rock created somewhat of a backlash against the guitar but players like Kenny,Wes,Herbie and Joe persevered and as a result of their efforts and the efforts of others the instrument is solidly established. The guitar is not for every jazz lover but hey that's cool. To each their own.

[Sundog]

I think the guitar is probably still looked down on by purists but it has become more mainstream and perhaps not judged as harshly as it has been in the past. Maybe part of the negativity came about from the early days of rock n' roll and I bet that jazz musicians who picked up the electric instrument where probably lumped together with the barbarian rockers by some members of the jazz community.

I realize that the guitar was established as a solo jazz instrument prior to rock but I cant help but feel that rock created somewhat of a backlash against the guitar but players like Kenny,Wes,Herbie and Joe persevered and as a result of their efforts and the efforts of others the instrument is solidly established. The guitar is not for every jazz lover but hey that's cool. To each their own.

Fairly ironic don't you think? Since Charlie Christian pretty much invented the prototypical warm overdriven guitar tone that rockers have come to know and love when he turned up to be heard over the Goodman Orchestra.

[chris olivarez]

It is indeed ironic.

[scottb]

I play some guitar and a lot of my early jazz exposure was "guitar jazz." To this day I consider jazz and guitar jazz two separate entities. Maybe because I favor hardbop. Art Blakey with Lee, Wayne and Curtis is hard to beat in my book.

Guitar is not so common in hardbop groups and when Grant Green and others make an occasional appearence it always suprises me. I think it works but it seems it just wasn't done a lot.

Solo Joe Pass or duos like Pass and Herb Ellis or even recent duos like Joe Beck and Jimmy Bruno more typify what I consider Guitar Jazz.

Having said that, I'm also a big fan of organ trios and soul jazz where guitar is prominent. So I guess what I'm saying is it depends a lot on the style of jazz being played.

[Guy Berger]

I think an interesting tangential question is why there weren't any prominent "progressive" post-bop guitarists during the 1960s. This was a period where Miles, Trane, Mingus, Eric Dolphy, Grachan Moncur, Jackie McLean, Woody Shaw, Wayne Shorter, Joe Henderson, Herbie Hancock, McCoy Tyner, Bobby Hutcherson, Larry Young, Walt Dickerson, Elvin Jones, Richard Davis, Tony Williams and others were all slowly pushing the boundaries of bebop and moving in various degrees toward more challenging settings. But I have a hard time thinking of major guitarists playing in the same style -- they mostly seemed rooted in bebop language.

For example, Grant Green plays on a couple of more "progressive" BN dates (Solid, Into Somethin') and while he holds his own, he's always the most conservative musician on the date. Kenny Burrell, Joe Pass, Wes Montgomery, Barney Kessel... same thing.

There's Sonny Sharrock, but he's not really a post-bop guy.

Actually, I just thought of one guy who might fit the bill -- Gabor Szabo. Some of his stuff with Chico does take jazz guitar past bebop. And of course, John McLaughlin records a major post-bop guitar date on Extrapolation, but that's near the end of the decade. And some of Pat Martino's playing during the late 60s fits the bill as well.

Any thoughts?

[Guest ariceffron]

I HEARD THAT IN THE EARLY 40S IN CHICAGO AT LEAST IF U PLAYED ELEC. GUITAR IN A BIG BAND U WERE CONSIDERED AN IDIOT WEIRDO.

[jazzbo]

Here's a two cd set where Marty Grosz really demonstrates his excellent comping skills (and all his other skills) undeniably:

[jazzbo]

And here is one of the many leader's dates where he shines:

[Sundog]

I think an interesting tangential question is why there weren't any prominent "progressive" post-bop guitarists during the 1960s.  This was a period where Miles, Trane, Mingus, Eric Dolphy, Grachan Moncur, Jackie McLean, Woody Shaw, Wayne Shorter, Joe Henderson, Herbie Hancock, McCoy Tyner, Bobby Hutcherson, Larry Young, Walt Dickerson, Elvin Jones, Richard Davis, Tony Williams and others were all slowly pushing the boundaries of bebop and moving in various degrees toward more challenging settings.  But I have a hard time thinking of major guitarists playing in the same style -- they mostly seemed rooted in bebop language... Any thoughts?

Playing Bop is a physically demanding endeavor on the guitar. There a very few players that can do it convincingly. Their solos usually pale in comparison when compared to horn players, especially great horn players like the ones you mentioned. The stylistic rules that make up bop were made by horn players. Guitar players have always had to deal with translating them to the guitar.

Check out Jimmy Rainey on Parker 51 from Stan Getz's Complete Roost Recordings. As great as Jimmy is, he can't totally keep up with the breakneck tempo that Stan solos over. I love Jimmy so no flames please. Just using this as an example to illustrate my point.

[Sundog]

Thanks for the recommendations.

[danasgoodstuff]

Well...somewhere past 'progressive' (a word/idea I dislike for its teleological implications...) there's Sonny Sharrock. And while it's not quite true that there's nothing twixt him and Grant Green, there's a lot less than you might expect...so I guess I'm kind of agreeing here.