Errors and Contradictions in the Bible

[Jim Alfredson]

BTW, my favorite Simpsons quote of all time:

Rev. Lovejoy: "Marge, have you actually read this thing? Technically we're not supposed to go to the bathroom."

[jazzypaul]

Yes, people who called themselves Christians killed off the Jewish population in Spain, killed off the American Indians and had a hand in hundreds or thousands of other disgusting atrocities.  But the real Christians of the world have always been a good lot, trying to do good by their fellow man while preaching the good news to those who will listen.

Maybe I am misremembering, but I don't recall you being so subtle, or charitable, in your characterizations of 'real atheists' and 'bad atheists'.

Mostly because most atheists try to butt their way into my business. I won't witness to anyone unless they ask me about my beliefs, and I am pretty sure that most of the Christians on the board (Shrdlu excluded) will do likewise. However, every day I am bombarded by atheists preaching their religion of no god at me. Want me to be charitable and subtle to the atheists around here, do likewise. While I will gladly exchange viewpoints with you if you wish to discuss things, don't go around telling me that my God doesn't exist (a pretty heavy thing to say), if you don't want a little bit of it thrown back at you.

Respect commands respect, after all, doesn't it?

[J Larsen]

Mostly because most atheists try to butt their way into my business. I won't witness to anyone unless they ask me about my beliefs, and I am pretty sure that most of the Christians on the board (Shrdlu excluded) will do likewise. However, every day I am bombarded by atheists preaching their religion of no god at me. Want me to be charitable and subtle to the atheists around here, do likewise. While I will gladly exchange viewpoints with you if you wish to discuss things, don't go around telling me that my God doesn't exist (a pretty heavy thing to say), if you don't want a little bit of it thrown back at you.

Respect commands respect, after all, doesn't it?

That's like me saying that "most" Christians butt their way into my (and everyone else's) business, with anti-gay and anti-abortion nonsense rooted in an arbitrary belief system to which I do not subscribe.

That statement is no more ridiculous than your own.

I agree with the respect commanding respect bit, though.

[Alexander]

While I will gladly exchange viewpoints with you if you wish to discuss things, don't go around telling me that my God doesn't exist (a pretty heavy thing to say), if you don't want a little bit of it thrown back at you.

Hey, guess what? Your God (along with any other god) doesn't exist. The universe is completely random. There's no such thing as "good" and "evil." There is no heaven and there is no hell. Jesus Christ never lived and the book you devote yourself to is an ancient con-job. Religion is social control. Hilter said that people would believe any lie provided the lie was big enough. P.T. Barnum said that there was a sucker born every minute. There are a lot of Christians, Muslims, and Jews in the world as well as millions of Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons, etc. Obviously both Hitler and Barnum were right.

Look, everybody is going to die, right? It happens to everyone and it's forever. It's a pretty scary thought, realizing that every day might be your last. People get scared, they start looking for comfort. And they find it in the words of a fictional 2000-year-old carpenter. "Don't worry! Death is not the end! You're going to be saved and live with God forever." People just eat that shit up, don't they? It's the oldest sucker game out there, and you swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

Is there something greater than man? I don't know, but I seriously doubt it. If there is, why were hundreds of millions of human beings of African descent enslaved in the United States for 300 years? Where was God when 6 million human beings belonging to the Jewish faith were turned in to lamp shades and bars of soap? Why doesn't God intervene when a child is abducted, raped, and murdered? Where was God on 9/11 anyway?

Oh, but that's right, it's all part of the plan. That's why "bad things happen to good people." So in that sense, we shouldn't be going after Bin Ladin, right? If it's all part of God's mysterious plan, then those planes were *meant* to crash into those towers, right? So instead of hunting Bin Ladin, we should give the man a medal. After all, didn't he act as an agent of God's will?

And have you ever considered this: Suppose there is a God. But that God *is not on your side.* Suppose God really DID send those 19 hijackers to heaven for slaughtering the infidel? Suppose only Mohammed's followers are going to heaven? After all, Mohammed claimed to be divinely inspired, no? How dare you say he was wrong! If the Bible is the word of God, that goes DOUBLE for the Koran (dictated, according to Mohammed, dicrectly from God's own lips). Doesn't that possibility bother you? What if you're the one who's deluded? What if God is planning on casting YOU into a lake of fire because you don't bow down and pray towards Mecca five times daily?

Or maybe, just maybe, it's all a fucking CROCK invented by human beings who wanted to know why the sky was blue and what was going to happen to them after they died.

Given what people are, and have been since the beginning of recorded history, it seems to me that the latter is likliest by far...

You can tell Jesus AND Mohammed that they can kiss my lilly white infidel butt TWO TIMES.

Edited August 27, 2004 by Alexander

[Noj]

No wonder this argument has persevered the ages. Imagine the multitudes who have discussed these very issues for it to arrive at the nuance and complexity of its present state. It is marvelous for me to sit here and read the words of such well-educated and well-read people. I appreciate you all, both sides of the argument.

It is very positive that we all engage in these exchanges. What else is there to do but discuss it?

Edited August 27, 2004 by Noj

[Noj]

Cracking up here, Alexander.

[JSngry]

But I also can't accept the idea of a vengeful God (as a "him", a purely physical definition of something that probably isn't physical in our sense of the word at all)

Indeed.

I believe beyond all doubt that there is God, but I'm less than convinced that there ia "a" God, an anthromorphic being. Sounds like something that humans invented to put a face on that which has no face.

But losing belief in the "symbol" in no way has dampened my belief in what it is that the symbol is attempting, no matter how flawed, to represent, or at least come to terms with.

I believe that the Bible (indeed, a collection of stories, but not "just" a collection of stories) can still provide guidance on the path to getting a better understanding of what that something is. But NOT if it is viewed as a literal representation of ultimate truth. I see it as one culture's record of that search. A "message from the ancestors" so to speak, and as such, there are flaws, deep flaws, human flaws. But can we not, should we not, learn a lesson from these flaws? Is it not the function of all "messages from the ancestors" to learn not only what to do, but what NOT to do?

I'm in no way an advocate of "organized religion", nor do I in any way subscribe to the notion of "Christian exclusivity". But in order to get somewhere, I have to start somewhere, and being raised in a Judeo-Christian culture, the most organic place for me to begin is within same. The lessons I learn from the Bible are in no way "exclusive" (most "major" religions come to the same conclusions through the perspective of their own cultural lens), but they nevertheless resonate deeper with me than do those of other culture's holy writings, the same way that Fathead NEwman resonates with me deeper than does Jan Garbarek. I can feel them both, and learn a lot from both, but when it come to which one hits deeper in the gut, it's Fathead, because he's "homefolks".

In a quite real sense, I've destroyed my faith in the "literal" Bible in order to keep my faith in that which is beyond literalism. Heretical to some, but is this not the lesson of the death and resurrection, or any other lessions from the Bible (indeed, in all creation!), that in order to live and grow, someting must go through a series of births, deaths and rebirths?

Those who curse at "organized religion" get no rebuff from me, nor do those who mock the concept of "a" God. But for those who do believe in a greater truth than what we can see and know, and to those who have a desire to follow the road to explore/discover that greater truth, I'm here to tell you that, in my personal experience, the Bible still offers much in the way of guidance and wisdom if you are willing to simultaneously let go of the notion of it as a book to be taken at face value (the word-by-word literal delineation of "God's Will") and at the same time take it exactly at face value (a collection of stories and other writings that DO reveal the nature of the relationship between humankind and that which is beyond it's clear understanding, including some royal screwups).

It's a kind of "truth in contradiction" thing, and if there are those from either side who want to call it either heretical or delusional, hey, go ahead. But if there Is "truth" then it only stands to reason that truth can be found, or at least it can be uncovered one portion at a time. Much like I don't hear Coltrane anything near the same way now as I did when I was 16, I don't "hear" the Bible the same way now as I did when I was a kid. In fact, both have been never-ending, always changing journies, with periods of confusion followed by clarity, followed by new confusion followed by new clarity, on and on and on. The more I find out I know, the more I find out I DON'T know. And the more I want to know, the more I find out I already knew it, I jsut didn't know that I knew it. It's a trip.

The Bible works for me in a way that no other "spiritual text" does. For those for which it doesn't, ok, I'm cool with that. But I would ask that the scorn and/or disrespet heaped on the book be levelled at the simpleminded uses to which it has been put, not against it's potential functionality as a guidebook to greater understanding, because just as surely as it can be (and has been) used it to chain and imprison, so can it be (and has been) used it to empower and liberate.

Is that just "projection" of the individual on the book, another way of saying that if you believe, deeply believe, that a shoe reveals the nature of God that it would be just as useful as the Bible? Yeah, I suppose it is. But if I know a cat who's really into shoes like that, I'm not going to go around telling him that shoes have been a perinneal source of discomfort for me my entire life (they have), or point out some of the pervese uses to which footwear have been put to over the centuries (footbinding, anybody?) , or anything like that. I'm just going to figure taht the guy's seeing a LOT more in shoes than I do, and hope that he's on a road that will someday cross mine, and that if and when it does, we''ll take it from there and see where the NEXT road leads us.

I would also hope that those who choose to get off the "Bible road" due to disillusionment, disbelief, or whatever, find another road to get back on. Not a road of "religion", but a road of humility in the face of creation and a road, a truly rewarding and personally relevant road, of seeking harmony and unity with/within it. Because without that, the track record of human behavior and accomplishment is less than stellar. And that goes for "religion" too. ESPECIALLY for "religion".

Enough of this navel gazing. I gotta go peel some potatoes.

[JSngry]

Cracking up here, Alexander.

Same here, albeit possibly for a different reason.

[JSngry]

Is there something greater than man?

How about man + earth + the solar system + the Milky Way + whatever.

That would be greater than just man alone, wouldn't it?

Objectively, without trying to lead the answer anywhere else, the answer would be yes, wouldn't it?

If it's not, then my feet would not be touching the floor, the floor would not be resting in the ground, rhe ground would not be held in place, and how the hell could I order from Dusty Groove?

[Noj]

Cracking up here, Alexander.

Same here, albeit possibly for a different reason.

I laughed due to the extreme contrast between my post and Alexander's--we posted simultaneously. Perhaps it was a bit of precognition on my part, sensing the time to try and re-establish the sense of community here (albeit in my own corny way).

Why'd you laugh?

[JohnJ]

Alexander, thank you for your post, very eloquent, and also very funny.

[Jim Alfredson]

Jim, the thing that keeps me connected to an underlying "spirituality" in the world is music, the love I have for my wife and family, and the face of my 4 month old daughter.

I hear what you're saying and I'm there with you. For me, personally, the Bible has run it's course and I don't find much in it to satisfy me anymore... probably because it has been so tainted in my mind from people who have used it to discriminate. My problem for sure, but luckily there are a lot of other viewpoints out there for me to investigate.

I got a book on Hinduism in college. Man, that's some wacky shit!

[brownie]

Alexander, your last post should be the final one on the subject.

You talked for me, thanks

[nmorin]

Yes, people who called themselves Christians killed off the Jewish population in Spain, killed off the American Indians and had a hand in hundreds or thousands of other disgusting atrocities.  But the real Christians of the world have always been a good lot, trying to do good by their fellow man while preaching the good news to those who will listen.

Maybe I am misremembering, but I don't recall you being so subtle, or charitable, in your characterizations of 'real atheists' and 'bad atheists'.

Mostly because most atheists try to butt their way into my business. I won't witness to anyone unless they ask me about my beliefs, and I am pretty sure that most of the Christians on the board (Shrdlu excluded) will do likewise. However, every day I am bombarded by atheists preaching their religion of no god at me. Want me to be charitable and subtle to the atheists around here, do likewise. While I will gladly exchange viewpoints with you if you wish to discuss things, don't go around telling me that my God doesn't exist (a pretty heavy thing to say), if you don't want a little bit of it thrown back at you.

Respect commands respect, after all, doesn't it?

Fair enough. If more than 90 percent of Americans rate themselves as believing in God and something over half going to church, where do you live or what circles do you travel in where "most atheists try to butt their way into my business"?

If people disrepect your faith, obviously that's not cool. But when you say "don't go around telling me that my God doesn't exist (a pretty heavy thing to say), if you don't want a little bit of it thrown back at you", you're not equating someone simply stating their belief that God doesn't exists as disrepecting your faith, are you?

[jazzypaul]

a whole bunch of crazy shit said by Alexander

Once again, you prove you have a god. Once again, you prove you have a religion. Once again, you prove that you are willing to worship your god.

I haven't seen that much passion and faith in a long, long time. You've got a lot of Bible banging Christians beat, Alexander. I just wonder how much different your opium tastes than mine.

And, I gotta say, that inspires me, Alexander. When I see someone with that much passion about something, I am moved. When I see someone with that much faith in an idea, I am touched. And when I see someone so devoted to their cause that they're willing to evangelize, even to the point of annoying their neighbors, just like a jehovah's witness, I am impressed. And I want that kind of faith in my life. So, thank you Alexander. You have made me stronger in my walk for the day.

Hey, guess what? Your God (along with any other god) doesn't exist. The universe is completely random. There's no such thing as "good" and "evil." There is no heaven and there is no hell.

And this, once again, proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that atheists are satanists. If there is no good and there is no evil, then do what thou wilt shall be the extent of the law. Right Mr. Crowley?

And in proving your satanism, you have proved the existance of God to me. You see, no one argues this hard about something that they actually don't believe. Nobody has ever gone to court to prove that Elvis is dead or that aliens don't exist. No one here has started a thread discrediting the guy who bought the lost Buddy Bolden cylander on e-bay, and no one has ever tried to put up a fight to prove that Wynton Marsalis never hired a Rhodes Player. If you know something in your heart of hearts, you believe it, and you move on. You, on the other hand, Alexander, fight so very hard to prove that there is no god, that you end up sounding like you're trying to convince yourself more than you're trying to convince anyone else.

**Note** If anyone has a problem with me saying this, talk to Alexander. He was the one who said that there is no good and evil, and therefore, by definition, no moral code of ethics. **End of Note**

Who says I'm in it for the death game? Death is a long way off for me, brother. And face it, there's a hell of a lot more comfort in your game than in mine. With you, you die, that's it. You're done. Really, not a bad way to go. Don't worry about hell, don't worry about whether or not Heaven will get boring just worshipping God all the time, don't worry about coming back as a cockroach (if hinduism is your game...), don't worry about whether you did enough good works to justify Allah letting you into paradise. Just die. I wish I was foolish enough to play that game. That's a lot less of a crapshoot.

See, I'm in it for the life game. Can you think of a better way to live than to follow Jesus' teachings? Compassion, giving, love and strength are at the core of his teachings. When we see people that followed Christ's example we see Martin Luther King, Jr, Mother Theresa, Thomas Merton, Bono (who, while a pompous ass, is trying to do good throughout the world, you must hand it to him), Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, and even Gandhi (who kept a picture of Christ in his office and always spoke highly of Jesus, even if he didn't speak well of Christianity...). I would think that those would be people that we would want as role models. If I can live a life comparable to any of them, do I have anything to fret about when I die? Even if I find out that there isn't an afterlife, wouldn't I be able to sit there on my deathbed and look back saying, I think I did alright?

We all have role models. Jesus is mine. And along with Jesus comes his divinity. I love the fact that my God is a loving and caring and compassionate God, not a god who is quick to anger or vengance. If I'm wrong, I can live with it at the end of the day. Can you?

As for your question about God not intervening, all I can say is I don't know. I don't know why God allowed 9/11. I don't know why God doesn't allow dollars to fall out of the sky and onto my porch, either. But I accept it. I figure it will all come into focus one day. And on that day, I'll be glad that I wasn't swayed by other people's rants and raves. We'll see I guess.

There is more to be said, but I am getting too tired to type. I will be back.

[jazzypaul]

Yes, people who called themselves Christians killed off the Jewish population in Spain, killed off the American Indians and had a hand in hundreds or thousands of other disgusting atrocities.  But the real Christians of the world have always been a good lot, trying to do good by their fellow man while preaching the good news to those who will listen.

Maybe I am misremembering, but I don't recall you being so subtle, or charitable, in your characterizations of 'real atheists' and 'bad atheists'.

Mostly because most atheists try to butt their way into my business. I won't witness to anyone unless they ask me about my beliefs, and I am pretty sure that most of the Christians on the board (Shrdlu excluded) will do likewise. However, every day I am bombarded by atheists preaching their religion of no god at me. Want me to be charitable and subtle to the atheists around here, do likewise. While I will gladly exchange viewpoints with you if you wish to discuss things, don't go around telling me that my God doesn't exist (a pretty heavy thing to say), if you don't want a little bit of it thrown back at you.

Respect commands respect, after all, doesn't it?

Fair enough. If more than 90 percent of Americans rate themselves as believing in God and something over half going to church, where do you live or what circles do you travel in where "most atheists try to butt their way into my business"?

If people disrepect your faith, obviously that's not cool. But when you say "don't go around telling me that my God doesn't exist (a pretty heavy thing to say), if you don't want a little bit of it thrown back at you", you're not equating someone simply stating their belief that God doesn't exists as disrepecting your faith, are you?

Take 5, Alexander and Shawn have been downright nasty about it. That's what I am talking about.

I have absolutely no problem with someone saying that they don't believe in God. That's their thing, and who am I to take that away from them, unless they ask for my testimony.

But, when people put up articles that are so poorly written as to be chided by even the other atheists on the board to goad me and other Christians, that's where I draw the line, and I will fight for what I believe in. When those veiled attacks become outright, I will be more than willing to fight just as hard as they'd like to.

As for the circles I travel in, I see more atheists than the average person, I can assure you. Or maybe I just notice them more. I dunno. But they're out there, and when they get militant about it, I can too.

[nmorin]

And this, once again, proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that atheists are satanists.  If there is no good and there is no evil, then do what thou wilt shall be the extent of the law.  Right Mr. Crowley?

Assuming Alexander speaks for all atheists, or makes the official pronouncements of correct belief, is the same as me assuming Shurdlu speaks for all Christians, and attacking the straw men thusly. You chided me once for missing a distinction you were trying to make about "Alexander's type" of nonbeliever, but I see no qualification here.

We all have role models. Jesus is mine. And along with Jesus comes his divinity. I love the fact that my God is a loving and caring and compassionate God, not a god who is quick to anger or vengance. If I'm wrong, I can live with it at the end of the day. Can you?

Jesus is a major role model for me too, but I came to it by being convinced of the merit of his example and his philosophy--I didn't find necessary the official stamp of The Divine. Without implying an ounce of disrespect--why do you find that "And along with Jesus comes his divinity" a necessary condition for Jesus being a role model?

I am a nonbeliever. I am not an atheist--the general concept of 'God' doesn't have any testable implications, as far as I can tell, and so is not falsifiable; thus I can't say there isn't a God, but neither do I see a compelling reason for the opposite conclusion. Still, I greatly admire and respect the Jesus of the Gospels (though the Pauline view grates on me some) and think the world would be much better off if more people acted as if they took his teachings seriously.

[JSngry]

Why'd you laugh?

Because the potato looked like Elmer Fudd.

[Noj]

What about the potato chip that looks like Jesus?

[Alexander]

Hey, guess what? Your God (along with any other god) doesn't exist. The universe is completely random. There's no such thing as "good" and "evil." There is no heaven and there is no hell.

And this, once again, proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that atheists are satanists. If there is no good and there is no evil, then do what thou wilt shall be the extent of the law. Right Mr. Crowley?

If I don't believe in God, I certainly don't believe in Satan. As should be obvious to anybody with a capacity for abstract thought, when I use the terms "good" and "evil" I mean ABSOLUTE good and evil. I am not an anarchist. There is still the rule of law. There are still ethics. I certainly believe that human behavior should and must be governed by codes of conduct. I simply recognize that these codes are codes of OUR OWN CHOOSING. They have not been handed down from on high. And I don't need the threat of punishment from some imaginary super-being to make me comply.

An example (insigificant, but something that happened this morning):

I came into work this morning at my part-time gig at the library. I wanted to get a drink from the vending machine, but I didn't have change. Being the good employee that I am, I asked my boss if she'd give me change for a fiver. She just pointed me to the cash register and said "I trust you." So I go to the register and get myself five ones in exchange for my five dollar bill (doing this could have gotten me fired at B&N, but the library is more trusting). No one was looking. I could have swiped a little more cash out of the drawer, but honestly the thought never even occurred to me. Now why not? If I don't believe that stealing is a "sin" and I could have gotten away with it, why not help myself to a little extra? First of all, I didn't steal because to do so would be to abuse the trust of my employer, and that's the last thing I want to do. Secondly, I recoginze that if we all just helped ourselves whenever we felt like it, we'd end up with chaos. So I don't do it. Would I steal if I were starving and I had to feed my hungry family? I probably would, but that's an extreme circumstance. Under ordinary conditions, I don't need to steal and so I CHOOSE not to steal. Similarly, I choose not to cheat on my wife, I choose not to cheat on my taxes, I choose to donate money to charities, etc. I choose to do good and not to do evil not because I seek heavenly salvation or fear divine punishment, but because I am a human being who has to live in cooperation with other human beings. Observing these rules of conduct allows our society to function, and makes my relationships with others more pleasant. I don't steal for the same reason I vote or hold the door open for a stranger: because it's a part of being a member of society. John Donne (a man of God, no less) said it best: "No man is an island, complete unto himself...every man's death diminishes me because I am involved in mankind." That philosophy is very important to me. It's a part of my creed as a socialist, that we are all involved in mankind and therefore have a severe obligation to take care of each other.

As to why I am so passionate about my atheisim, it's very simple: You know how you feel when you say that you are into jazz, and someone says that they love jazz too, but then mention how much they love Kenny G? And you want to cure them of their delusion by exposing them to REAL jazz? It's the same thing with me and religion. My wife and daughter and I live a deeply contented life with satisfying interests and fulfilling work, and we do it all without God. And when I see people deluding themselves with religion I want to scream, "You don't have to do that! You can be a good person and find happiness and not bow down before something that isn't there!" I don't know what it is. Stupidity has that effect on me, I guess. I do believe that as human beings we can do better. At the end of the day, I am an idealist. Just as socialism is an ideal for me (a world without private property where no one is hungry or homeless), so too is atheisim (a world without holy wars and discrimination against homosexuals and women, where people live for today and not dreaming of an alleged hereafter). Am I passionate about it? Damn straight I am. I believe in human beings. I believe that a better world is there, outside of our reach for the moment. And one thing we need to do in order to fulfill our potential is cast aside superstition. There is wonder in the natural world. There is terror and magnificence in the universe beyond the wildest dreams of the God of Exodus. Does it really improve a sunset to believe that God made it? Isn't all the more beautiful knowing that it just IS?

[Alexander]

For Paul and others who may be confused about exactly what constitutes an atheist and/or a humanist (and most humanists are atheists), here is a nice definition from the website of the Capital Disctrict Humanist Association:

"What do secular humanists believe?

Secular humanists believe that this is the only life of which we have certain knowledge and that we owe it to ourselves and others to make it the best life possible for ourselves and all with whom we share this fragile planet.

We believe that human beings have made society what it is - the good and the bad.

We find no evidence for supernatural causes of, or remedies for, humankind's condition.

We believe that people are best able to solve this world's problems when they are free to use reason and knowledge as their tools.

We recognize these realities:

Humankind has, over the millennia, evolved codes of moral and ethical conduct necessary for survival of the individual and the species.

Also, over the millennia, humankind has created deities (gods) to account for the natural world and devised mysteries and myths to assuage the fear of death by promising immortality.

These gods and myths evolved into a variety of religions, which selectively adopted elements of society's evolving codes of conduct and claimed for those codes some form of supernatural or divine-origin.

These religious have provided (and still provide) the rationale for compassionate behavior but also for hatred, bigotry, and brutal inquisitions, wars, crusades, pogroms, and holocausts causing untold misery and countless millions of deaths."

For further info, click here.

[J Larsen]

My potato chip is crying.

[Big Al]

I hear what you're saying and I'm there with you. For me, personally, the Bible has run it's course and I don't find much in it to satisfy me anymore... probably because it has been so tainted in my mind from people who have used it to discriminate. My problem for sure, but luckily there are a lot of other viewpoints out there for me to investigate.

I hear ya, brother; at the same time, I hope that one day you’ll find in the Bible something to latch onto and bring you back to what you first believed in, before it became tainted and clouded by those who would use the Bible as a weapon. It certainly wasn’t ever intended that way. Not for nothing did Jesus say “Come to me, all you who are weary, and I will give you rest.” It is my hope that one day, you’ll be able to do that; to let go and get past all the religious bullshit and focus only on Him. (And as I read that, it looks terribly condescending and I don’t mean it that way at all. In fact, I wish we were at Vitale’s having this conversation over a few beers, where things sound better when they’re spoken as opposed to being written.)

I also wanna echo what JSngry said:

The Bible works for me in a way that no other "spiritual text" does. For those for which it doesn't, ok, I'm cool with that. But I would ask that the scorn and/or disrespet heaped on the book be levelled at the simpleminded uses to which it has been put, not against it's potential functionality as a guidebook to greater understanding, because just as surely as it can be (and has been) used it to chain and imprison, so can it be (and has been) used it to empower and liberate.

Truer words were never spoken.

[JSngry]

What about the potato chip that looks like Jesus?

Bet you can't eat just one.

[Jim Alfredson]

Big Al, thanks. It was actually a very hard thing to do, to give up my faith since both my father and my mother especially are devout Christians. My mother read her Bible everyday and was a good person. But she fell into the same traps that many do. In fact, I asked her a couple months before she died when she was talking about people not being saved and going to hell whether she honestly thought that all the Hindus and Buddhists and other religions that don't believe in Jesus, whether all those billions of people are going to hell? Does that sound right to you, if they had led good lives and lived honestly and cared for their families and were truly good people? She admitted it didn't make much sense.

Another instance that made me lose my religion was someone very close to me coming out of the closet. Whether we like it or not, the Bible does condemn homosexuality. Once I got out of my small world and met homosexuals and became friends with them, as well as had that close person come out, I realized that such discrimination is worthless and evil. Homosexuals are good people who only want love and happiness, just like everybody else. That's why the whole argument against gay marraige irks me so... it is all based on religion. There is not one non-religious argument why we shouldn't allow homosexual marraige.

And societies overall bigotry towards homosexuals stems from religion and fear. Fear of the unknown. And the whole basis of Christianity to me seems to be fear. Fear of going to hell. Fear of God's wrath. Fear of not knowing what happens when you die (Oh, you go to heaven... how comforting!). I will not base the foundation of my life on such shaky ground as fear.