J Larsen Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Quite frankly, I feel like I'm getting a lesson in doublespeak with the talk of the church's position on homosexuality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 (edited) So are you saying that the Bible was written by man and is not the word of God? Again, doesn't this throw the whole thing out the window? The whole thing? No, I think I've reached a point where I'm gonna end up alienating people, and I don't want that. When I start writing out of frustration (usually as a result of not being able to communicate properly what is in my heart), then the heart gives up, the mind takes over, and starts spewing all sorts of venom. I don't want that to happen again. I value my friendship with you, and it's not worth jeopardizing over our differing interpretations of the Bible. I love and respect you much more than that. I don't know if it's obvious, but I do struggle with this, and absolutely hate it that this one sin in the Bible is taken so far out of context as to exclude others, when there are so many more sins that the Bible speaks of that are infinitely worse out there, so much more destructive. I hate it that this person so close to you feels outcast, and I'm sure the church is a fair amount of responsible for your friend's feelings. I hate it that what happened to this person has caused you to lose your faith. I would love to continue this dialogue with you via e-mail or PM, but completely understand if you wanna let it go. I apologize if my emotions get in the way of sound reasoning; especially since I cannot begin to fathom what you and this person are going through, and am speaking from little to no experience in this area. Are we cool? (edited cuz I forgot to rnu the spellckech) Edited August 30, 2004 by Big Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Big Al, we're cool. I hope jazzypaul and I are cool, too. I do not agree with Alexander that people who are Christian (or any other religion for that matter) are stupid. I just don't see the Bible as being anything more than a collection of stories, some with good points on living life, some that are pretty much worthless. But that's just me. It doesn't mean I don't believe in a higher power of some sort. It doesn't mean that I think I'm right. It's just how I see it at this point in time. Like Sangry, I might go back later in my life and find something in the Bible I'd never seen before. Who knows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 B-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzypaul Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Jim, you and I are totally cool. I ducked out for the same reasons that Al said he was...I found myself getting away from the very message that I was trying to get out there...that not all Christians are assholes. Then I was being an asshole. At that point, it's time to step back and say, "you know, people are going to think what they're going to think. who am I to stop them?" As for Alexander and Take 5, I am reminded of the great Shakespeare quote: "The woman doth protest too much!!" But yeah, I'm out of the religious discussions too. No good is coming of these, from my point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 I do not agree with Alexander that people who are Christian (or any other religion for that matter) are stupid. I make a distinction between stupid people and stupidity or stupid acts, if you prefer. Everyone, even me, is capable of committing stupid acts. I don't think Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. are stupid. Naive, perhaps, but not stupid. I think belief in something that does not exist is stupid, but that's not the same thing as saying that the people *themselves* are stupid. I'm 33 years old and I still read comic books. You may think that's a pretty stupid thing too, but it doesn't make me stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted August 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Here, after numerous rabbit trails, are the answers to the three puzzles that began this thread. For convenience, there now being 16 pages (!!), here they are again. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (1) "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign." (II Kings 8:26), yet "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign." (II Cronicles 22:2) It's the same guy in both verses. (2) This one has to do with the dimensions of the "molten sea" outside Solomon's temple. II Chronicles 4:2 says "He made a molten sea of ten cubits from brim to brim, round in compass, ..., and a line of thirty cubits did compass it about." But every math student knows that the circumference of a circle is pi (about 3.14159) times the diameter, so if the diameter is 10 cubits, then the circumference would have to be about 31.4159 cubits. And God doesn't say "about ten"; he says "ten". (3) "Thou shalt not kill." (Exodus 20:13), yet "To everything there is a season, ..., A time to kill." (Ecclesiastes 3:1 and 3) ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (1) Ahaziah was anointed to be king when he was 22, but he didn't actually step onto the throne until he was 42. It's that simple! In those days, things were very complex in the Kingdoms of Judah (Southern) and Israel (Northern). At one time, there were three kings of the Northern Kingdom at the same time. There are other examples in scripture of a king being anointed to be king long before he stepped onto the throne. David was anointed by Samuel over 7 years before he took over from Saul. And the Lord Jesus Christ was anointed as King of the Jews in Matthew Chapter three and still hasn't stepped onto the throne, almost 2000 years later! But he will, and it won't be long now. (2) Ten cubits is the outside diameter. "The thickness of it was an handbreadth", verse 5. Allow about 4" for your handbreadth. The circumference referred to is the inside circumference. Then it all works. A cubit is usually taken to be 18" (it's the distance from the fingertips to the elbow). Everything fits if you round to the nearest whole number, which is a reasonable thing to do in a description like this. (If you want to work backwards from the 30 and the 10, then 4.05" as the handbreadth will do, if you are fussy.) I don't know about you, but my hand is about 4" wide. They must have had standard weights and measures in Jerusalem, of course. So, anyone trying to discredit the scriptures is going to have to look elsewhere. As I said, I would never have spotted this supposed error anyway. (3) This one is so obvious that it's almost embarassing to explain. (I'm not accusing any poster of having said that this was an error, by the way.) God says it's a sin to commit murder, as in killing your neighbor to grab his possessions. The Bible interprets itself. When Jesus was asked about the law, he said "Thou shalt do no murder", Matthew 19:18. The reference is to Exodus 20:13. But, it is not a sin to kill the enemy if you are in your country's armed forces. Exodus 20:13 does not apply to war service. (I am not saying that it's good to kill, even there, and I'm glad that I have never had to kill anyone in a war zone.) Exodus 20:13 would also not apply to reasonable self defense, or defense of your family where there is no alternative, and no good legal system will charge you with murder for such a killing. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There is always a good explanation of supposed contradictions in the Bible. I'm sorry, but there are so many that I cannot post about all of them. If it appears to be rude that I did not go into that posted website, then my apologies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted August 30, 2004 Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 I'm 33 years old and I still read comic books. That's not helpin' you make your case! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted August 30, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2004 Re the discussions about specific sins (which are a long way from where the thread started ), God does not send anyone to hell when they die because of what they have done, but rather because of what they are. A person is either an unsaved sinner (which is our state when we are first conceived, Psalm 51:5), or they are saved by accepting Jesus Christ as Saviour, in which case God regards them as sinless. It's that simple. You either die with all your sins on you, or with absolutely none in God's sight. With that in mind, there is no need to major on such individual sins as drunkeness or sex perversion. I don't. Anyone is welcome at our Church. I am in no position to look down upon anyone else, as I am a sinner, too. Saved, yes, but I still remember what I was saved from. In passages such as John, Chapter 8, we see Jesus tenderly accepting and forgiving a sinner who will turn to him. Re the comment about "fundamentalists" in services looking like zombies, and waving about, remember that these TV scenes are of "charismatic" churches. The charismatic movement (to do with supposed gifts) is totally unscriptural, so their behaviour does not represent that of a scriptural congregation. In our Church, we don't wave about, and we don't carry on like zombies. We are just ordinary, down-to-earth people who have gathered to do stuff like singing hymns, giving testimonies of blessings that our Lord has given us, hearing a message preached, and praying for the needs of the members and others. Also, we have no ridiculous dress standards or fashion parade. I avoid the terms "fundamentalist" and "Christian" for reasons such as this. They have no precise meaning, and different groups tend to be lumped together under such monikers as these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 It's funny how one of the most common attitudes among Christians is "oh no, they're not Christians even though they claim to be; only our church has it right..." But then that's probably common among all religions. I know it was always more fun to fight my cousin than a stranger when I was a kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted August 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 If that's a reference to me, may I say that salvation does not come from any Church, including mine. Jesus saves. Our Church does not claim to have a monopoly on salvation - and we don't have a monopoly. But that is not to say that there are not churches with errors in their doctrine. The Bible is the rule of faith and practice in a biblical Church. There are oodles of false churches. It is easy to show, from the Bible, that they have doctrinal errors. I hate legalism, and prefer to be compassionate, friendly and helpful. But I cannot go along with some of the monstrous errors. In a friendly, quiet way, we obey Romans 16:17 and stay clear of them. I wish that there were no false churches. There are, because of what sinful men have done, but it's not God's fault. Each person's job is to take a Bible and decide which church has it right. I went through that when I had just gotten saved - in Victoria, British Columbia. I got me a Yellow Pages and went through the Churches section. They had everything from soup to nuts. I easily narrowed it down to a short-list of four, and it did not take long to realize that an Independent Baptist Church was the way to go. Years ago, the King of the Netherlands asked his advisors to find the most biblical type of church and then make it the State Church. The advisors quickly realized that an Independent Baptist Church was the kind of church taught by the Bible, and they approached some Baptists to set up a State Church. The offer was declined, as it is un-biblical to have a State Church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Yeah, it's interesting to note that a GREAT deal of the writings of the Old Testament prophets concern "religion gone wrong", the reality of "knowing God" turning into smug self-satisfaction, baseless legalism, exclusionary tactics, rank hypocrisy, etc. Many of those writings are more scathing than anything that the athiests here have put forth! Same old same old, and it's as true today as it was then. There really IS nothing new under the sun (to quote the Bible... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted August 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 smug self-satisfaction, baseless legalism, exclusionary tactics, rank hypocrisy, etc. Well don't include me in those, please. I am saved, but not smug about it - just greatly relieved. I didn't save myself, so I have nothing to feel proud of. I dislike legalism, but we have to have some structure and rules, and we follow the Bible in our Church, as best we can. Any good Church would. Without doctrine, any Church or other organization would be a chaotic mess. It is certainly not "baseless", as it is rooted in the word of God. Re "exclusionary tactics", there is no pleasure or pride involved, but God does say to "mark and avoid" those who teach false doctrine, (Romans 16:17). This is for protection. Humans try to avoid bad things in all our activities in life. I avoid bad cars, as I want a reliable one. (I have a good one, too. It's a Volvo, and it's been great.) I don't believe an Independent Baptist is a hypocrite. A hypocrite is a person who pretends to be something that they are not. How does that apply to us? In the Old Testament days, the people had gone wrong! Such things as worshipping a golden calf, or Dagon the fish "god". No, really! So God had his prophets speak out against such stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Wasn't talking about you at all, Shrdlu, not at all. We no doubt have severe thrological differences, but you're about as straight-shooting, no-nonsense, and principled as they come, and you have my sincerest respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrdlu Posted August 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Thanks, Jim. There's nothing like a good debate about Thrology, especially over a campfire in the morning, with sausage, eggs, biscuits and grits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 You eat grits? My respect has just more than doubled! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Dang - I'm joining you guys for breakfast! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Larsen Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 I make a distinction between stupid people and stupidity or stupid acts, if you prefer. Love the sinner, hate the sin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 If that's a reference to me... Nope. Well, a little maybe. But no more than anyone else, believe me. Besides, if you eat grits, it puts you on my "accepted" list as well... So on to truly weighty matters of import...is anyone else here low class enough to mix up their eggs in their grits like me? Or are y'all high-falutin' grits eaters? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 How do you take your eggs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 is anyone else here low class enough to mix up their eggs in their grits like me? Now that's just plain, uh, unholy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Over medium-solid whites, runny yolks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 Made for mixin'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 I hereby turn in my jazz credentials to anything greeeeazy with the following statement: grits make me gag. It was nice knowin’ y’all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 grits make me gag. Yankee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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