BFT #17 - Discussion - Disc 2

[Tom Storer]

Here's the thread to talk about Disc 2 of BFT #17.

Unlike Disc 1, Disc 2 has a theme of sorts, which you'll probably figure out pretty quickly. At least one participant, and maybe some others, might know some of the selections. Hint: you won't find any of these recordings on AMG.

[MartyJazz]

Can't say I know what the theme of this disc is yet, but here goes my preliminary reactions:

1) Has to be George Adams on tenor. Very distinctive player

2) Well if the tenor on the 1st track is distinctive what can I say about this one? It's almost embarrassing to point out who it is as he and this piece should be automatically known to any jazz fan. The only question is, where did this live version of this tune that he has played on at least 5,000 occasions come from?

3) "Straight, No Chaser". Avant garde piano of interest, no idea who it is.

4) "Bye Bye Blackbird" segueing into "Naima". Don't recognize the alto player. Dug the quote from "When Lights are Low".

5) Woody Shaw?

[tooter]

Glad of the AMG warn-off - thanks Tom.

1. I haven't a clue - someone like Don Cherry or Lester Bowie? Not my kind of thing.

2. is this guy I feel certain and the tune will not be a mystery to many - St Thomas - he wrote it. Could hardly hear the bass, particularly at first. Could the drummer therefore be Max Roach?

3. The guitar player seems very familiar but is he out of his usual setting? Can't dig up a name yet - maybe Kenny Burrell.

4. Drummer very loud again - tune will not puzzle anyone, surely. Quote from Naima near the end and another quote I can't quite identify earlier. No names.

5. What is that tune? - somehow the name Freddie Hubbard comes into my mind, apropos the tune that is. It's on the tip of my tongue...Grrrrr....

6. Certain I know the trumpeter, but last time I tried to put more than one link in it wouldn't work, so I'll just say "arborial". If I'm right, the sop sax could be someone whose name starts at the beginning and the end of the alphabet (is that too obvious?)

[tooter]

Ah, yes! When Lights are Low - the quote in 4.

[JSngry]

Same preamble as Disc One...

Ah, bootlegs! Smells GOOD in here!

TRACK ONE - Mingus, "For Harry Carney", Adams, Walrath, Pullen, Dannie. I've got this on a Keystone Korner gig on Jazz Hour, but this is not that. Marvellous group, George in particular. What a force he was. Died WAY too soon. I think the band played this tune LOT better live than on the CHANGES version. Beautiful, what else can you say...

TRACK TWO - Somewhere between 63-65, I'd think. I lean towards the early end of that spectrum. Definitely not 50s. Later in the 60s, he got a lot more open in his structuring before coming back in for a more "formal" approach, like on the Denmark boots. Drummer's a real free spirit, especially for within this time frame. Not too many people I know doing the pitch-bending thing back then, except Blakey and Max, and it doesn't sound like either of them. They'd not play a little hambone beat behind Sonny's solo. Han Bennick? I don't have this one, but brother, do I want it!

TRACK THREE - Almost sounds like one of those old Yamaha electric grands...Chick? Roy Haynes? Guitarist has the fluency of Benson, but not the feel. Coryell? He's got that old-school in him. Why do I get the feeling that is some Corea/Burton thing with old buddies of both on board? That sure sounds like latter-day Roy on drums, which is why I'm saying that. Electric bass? Swallow? If ti's these guys, it's wierd to hear them playing like this after all these years of doing other stuff. Nice enough, but frankly, I like them better doing their own thing(s), usually, except for Burton, who I usually find disposable regradless of the context (the exception being the early ECM duets w/Corea & Swallow).

TRACK FOUR - Now THIS one is interesting! Drummer REALLY sounds like Max, vocabulary-wise, but isn't as clean (and isn't trying to be!). Could be Sunny Murray...Byard Lancaster on alto? I'm guessing, obviously. No solid clue, but it's a good jam. Not really tight, but that's not always the object of live playing. I dig this one.

TRACK FIVE - "One Finger Snap". Tony, Herbie, Ron, it's gotsta be. It's interesting to hear how this era's vocabulary translated to that of the so-called "fusion" innovators. I've been listening to a lot oof Zawinul lately, and there's a direst link from all the superfast stuff him and his band members play and the vocabulary developed within the Miles orb from the miid-60s thru the very early 70s. A DIRECT link. This cut's nice. This trio (assuming it's Ron) played together a fair amount over the years, and although they never broke "past" where they were in the 60s, they never turned into repeater pencils either. so this is a nice thing to hear, especially since Ron (I'm pretty sure now that it's him) is PLAYING, instead of doodleydooping around being RON CARTER.

Hell yeah, This is some right shit here!

TRACK SIX - Woody Shaw, right? Same thing about the vocabulary here going over into the best early fusion playing. That's something that I haven't really heard for real until just recently. But tell you what - you take this groove, put the bass player on electric, change Woody to from a trumpet to a synth, qnd bygod, you damn near gots you some fusion (the GOOD kind, mind you). Not that that has anything to do with Woody or anything, but it does show you that there's more than one way to get from there to here and back again, and cocaine is only part of the equation...

Carter on soprano? I'm guessing that this is the "classic" quintet of the early Columbia years, becaseu when I saw them live, this is the kind of groove and vibe they hit all night long. Yeah buddy!

Okay, voice at the end seals the deal. That's Woody. Although I don't know what the hell he's saying!

THis was fun. I LOVE bootlegs!

[Jim R]

Well, I had a lot more trouble with this disc than disc 1 (not that disc 1 was a piece o' cake either...)

Disc 2:

1. Well-executed, cohesive, harshly real, very emotive... but NMT™. Listenable, but I have no real urge to hear it again.

2. Sonny Rollins trio doing “St. Thomas” before a live audience. Sound quality is not very good, which makes me wonder if this was not a commercially-released item. Sonny has no doubt played this tune hundreds (thousands?) of times, and yet he sounds very inspired here. Strange how it ends during the percussion solo.

3. “Straight no chaser”, live recording. Sounds a little bit like it was recorded on a portable cassette machine in the audience. The pianist reminds me of Tyner at times. The guitarist is fairly talented, showing the influence of Wes (which is like saying “that tenor player sounds like he was influenced by Coltrane”), and a bit of George Benson. He’s a little sloppy at times, and not really distinctive to my ears, which makes me wonder if he’s a very well-known player. Nice vibes solo, but I couldn’t say who. That bass sounds odd somehow... like a bass guitar with the treble turned way up.

4. “Bye bye blackbird”, morphing into “Naima” near the end. From time to time I’ve seen people post things like “this might have been fun to hear in person, but hearing a recording of it isn’t all that exciting”. I get that sort of feeling here. Out of the context of the “vibe” of this particular show, this is kind of hard for me to get into. Kind of long, and loose to my ears.

5. I can’t really get into this. At least not yet.

6. More enjoyable than the previous track, but still NMT™.

[Tom Storer]

Ah, bootlegs!

Well... not quite! Depends on how you define "bootlegs," though...

I'm getting a great kick out of reading everyone's comments!

[tooter]

5. Yes, One Finger Snap - of course! I thought of Freddie Hubbard because of [Empyrean Isles] - now the penny drops.

[randyhersom]

1. Seventies-ish long jam with an African vibe. Reminds me a bit of Hannibal Peterson.

2. Tenor with Latin Percussion on familiar tune with an island vibe. Did Ben Webster ever do a latin session?

3. Front line of guitar, piano and vibes go at Monk. Jay Hoggard? Bass definitely has an electric sound, either bass guitar or amplified upright.

4. More live stuff, featuring alto. Although I don't think it's out enough, I'll guess later Sonny Simmons. Not all that many pianoless alto trios that I know of.

5. Great extended piano trio, same kind of energetic drumming as on the previous track. Myra Melford?

6. Live Woody Shaw?

Live seems to be the theme. Enjoyed both disks very much

[randyhersom]

Aarrrghh. I did think of Herbie, but I didn't know of a live album by the trio.

[Tom Storer]

I did think of Herbie, but I didn't know of a live album by the trio.

You're right, this trio doesn't have a live album out--and neither does the trio Sangry guessed.

[JSngry]

But none of these cuts are from "live albums", at least not that I know of...

[mikeweil]

Here are my guesses for disc 2, notes taken during the very first listen to this disc, and of course without peeking at others' guesses.

1. Private live recording, of probably 1970's vintage.

No idea. The sound of that trumpet gets a little painful although I see he wants that sound by inserting the mic into the bell of the horn. I may have heard similar bands back then, but can't quite recall whom - somewhat in between electric Miles and advanced hard bop.

2. The opening phrase sounds like Bird, but the theme and the solo give it away instantly, who this is, everybody here should know this famous tune by an even more famous tenor. Probably made during one of his European tours - I dare say Han Bennink on drums, as he is the only one I recall to have that much daring and imagination and still the groove and guts to play in such a context. Wild ideas - too bad there is a fadeout, but he probably went on for days ...

3. Straight No Chaser by what sounds like an impromptu festival group. Bass guitar sounds a little annoying, though he plays very nicely. Bobby Hutcherson? The doorbells have that California vibe. No idea who the pianist is; guitarist sounds familiar and like he was the leader.

4. Bye Bye Blackbird. HAFC, but I like the "cool" sound of the alto cat, and he seems to know a lot of music - I especially like the "When Lights Are Low" quote. I must admit I enjoy such lengthy performances more at the club than on a CD. But this is a very interesting player. Oh - Bye Bye Naima! I just wish some people in the back room would shut up and listen!

5. It's nice the drummer starts out with these bells and icebell cymbals, but for my taste he relies a little too much on typical drum technical phrases as he moves to the toms and snare. Ah - "One Finger Snap". Now is this Herbie? Sounds a little less daring harmonically than what I am used to hear from him, but there are so many trademark licks and turns, it must be him. Bassist sounds like a croosing between Ron Carter and Dave Holland, so I'd say Buster Williams. But no, the solo is too cleanish for Buster - Pattitucci? Gene Jackson on drums? Or this younger guy Willie Jones III he used on a recent tour? I'd rather say Jackson. Not Brian Blade.

p.s. Turns out I have a 1990 New York live recording of this tune with Jackson and some Jeff Rother on bass, but this is different. Tom, can we arrange a trade?

6. Woody Shaw? The vibe sounds what I remember from seeing this band live back then. Great and technically excellent trumpet playing. Victor Lewis on drums? Ah - the tune title at the end - a piece recorded for his last Columbia LP but unissued until the Mosaic. Like this much better than the studio stuff.

Great idea - only live tracks on disc 2, and mostly unofficial, it seems - but the theme must be somewhat beyond that. Thanks a lot for the care you took in selecting these, Tom!

[Tom Storer]

But none of these cuts are from "live albums", at least not that I know of...

Quite right... they're live, but they're not from albums!

So Jim, do you want to have another go at number 5?

[randyhersom]

Picking up on the Naima quote, perhaps Sonny Fortune could be the track 4 player.

[JSngry]

But none of these cuts are from "live albums", at least not that I know of...

Quite right... they're live, but they're not from albums!

So Jim, do you want to have another go at number 5?

You're telling me something, aren't you...

[JSngry]

Billy Cobham: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/store...4635640-0795835

?????????????????????????????????????? Makes sense....

[Tom Storer]

I see I've led you down the garden path--unintentionally, I hasten to add! No, none of the pieces on Disc 2 are from videos either. As for the personnel guess, you're close but no closer.

My God, I'm enjoying myself. This is bringing out a sadistic streak in me I didn't know I had!

[JSngry]

Ok....

Herbie, Jeff Littleton/Dave Holland/Kenny Davis, and Gene Jackson?

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Gene_Jackson1.html

[JSngry]

2. ...I dare say Han Bennink on drums, as he is the only one I recall to have that much daring and imagination and still the groove and guts to play in such a context....

Great minds think alike, I see....

But are we right?

I'll be damned if I can imaginge any AMERICAN drummer playing like that w/Sonny in the 60s (the guard is WAAAAAYYYY let down), nor can I think of any other European drummer who would have the GUTS to play like that behind Sonny at ANY time. I know Sonny toured w/a trio that included Alan Dawson in 65(?), and Dawson COULD do this kind of thing, maybe, MAYBE, but it's kinda like having lunch with Jesus while he's passing through town and feeling comfortable enough to chug a beer, burp and ask him how he got those scars on his hands, ya' know? Like I said, I can't imagine any American drummer in the 1960s going there. Too many socio-politico-etcetero things in the air then for that to happen. Besides, this was before cats knew that somebody like Tommy Campbell could/would get hired for Sonny's gig...(no disrespect to Mr. Campbell, either, fine player, he was Newk's drummer when I had that magical levitation experience. But hey....)

Wasn't aware of a Rollins/Bennick gig amongst the archives, but one never knows, do one...

Edited September 19, 2004 by JSngry

[mikeweil]

I understand your being skeptical, Jim, but I remember Han Bennink playing with all kinds of people that must be considered mainstream compared to what he did later - there were some interviews I do not have the time to dig out.

Daniel Humair comes to mind as well, but was he that daring at that time? And, BTW I remember Humair saying he played with probably everybody except Rollins and Miles, so he's out of the game. I hear the drummer drum on some massive wood like a floor or furniture, and that was something Bennink more or less introduced. Andrew Cyrille or someone of this caliber, moved in different circles. Dawson? Unlikely, does not sound like him to me. I stick with my Bennink guess.

Thanks for the compliment, BTW .... Will send you a PM regarding some item on disc 1.

Edited September 20, 2004 by mikeweil

[JSngry]

Oh, I'm not at all skeptical that it could be Bennick. Can't think of anyone else it could be. And I know about his history as an excellent "straight ahead" player. I just didn't know that such an encounter had been recorded and was floating around in the "collectors zone"

But now I do (maybe...let's see the answers....). Gotta love the Internet!

Edited September 19, 2004 by JSngry

[Tom Storer]

TRACK THREE - [...] I like them better doing their own thing(s), usually, except for Burton, who I usually find disposable regradless of the context (the exception being the early ECM duets w/Corea & Swallow).

TRACK FIVE - [...] I've been listening to a lot of Zawinul lately, and there's a direst link from all the superfast stuff him and his band members play and the vocabulary developed within the Miles orb from the mid-60s thru the very early 70s. A DIRECT link.

TRACK SIX - Woody Shaw, right? Same thing about the vocabulary here going over into the best early fusion playing. That's something that I haven't really heard for real until just recently. But tell you what - you take this groove, put the bass player on electric, change Woody to from a trumpet to a synth, qnd bygod, you damn near gots you some fusion (the GOOD kind, mind you).

Jim, getting back to some of your comments--you don't like the ECM albums from the 70's by Burton's groups? "Dreams So Real," "Ring", "Passengers," "The New Quartet"? I love that stuff.

And I'd be interested to hear what Zawinul it is you've been listening to. Surely not the Zawinul Syndicate? A direct link to 60's/70's Miles seems kind of natural, since Zawinul was there! He'd probably say Miles got it from him.

That's a fascinating insight about the link between fusion and the kind of music Woody Shaw was making. I'm going to have to try to hear that.

[JSngry]

Jim, getting back to some of your comments--you don't like the ECM albums from the 70's by Burton's groups? "Dreams So Real," "Ring", "Passengers," "The New Quartet"? I love that stuff.

I "like" it, but it doesn't seem to stick for me. Kinda like there's no "there" tehere, like somebody (Dorothy Parker?) once said about someplace. Certainly respect everybody involved and the music iteself, but I guess I just don't vibrate at that frequency.

[JSngry]

And I'd be interested to hear what Zawinul it is you've been listening to. Surely not the Zawinul Syndicate?

Yeah, but just the WORLD TOUR set and MY PEOPLE. Couldn't handle the Syndicate albums on Columbia AT ALL, and blew the whole scene off for many years. But those two are mighty fine afaic. Also been getting into the live Weather Report set. More "blowing" on that than on the studio sides, and you can hear the link really good there too (obviously, given the players involved)) "Fast" and "flash" are not always synonymous, and neitehr are "fast" and "empty". Plenty of solid ideas going on in those minds and in that music more often than not, if you can get past all the electricity and "nonjazz" rhythms. Actually, it's the rhythms that appeal to me as long as they stay loose and not too "rock-y". It's a fresh coat of paint, imo, and much more reflective of "the world today", if you know what I mean. Just my tastes, though.