Max Roach Health

[AllenLowe]

I was only making the point that we can't necessarily separate the public and private life - and, bad as he was, at least Hitler never slapped Eva Braun in public -

Edited February 15, 2005 by AllenLowe

[michel devos]

in that case, let's not forget to mention that Hitler was nice to Eva Braun and I have a very nice painting of his that I can sell you -

We despise Hitler's actions in the wider public realm & don't care whether he was in private a decent family man, liked classical music, &c.

[JSngry]

...bad as he was, at least Hitler never slapped Eva Braun in public -

Dude, I know where you're coming from, but that's kind of a, uh... weird way to put it...

[AllenLowe]

"A very good movie came out recently, giving a completely unusual angle of view of the personage...."

actually my model is the Producers -

[Nate Dorward]

Allen--mnh, yeah, but it doesn't make the point as well as an analogous example.

[AllenLowe]

that requires too much thought and reasoning - hey, this is an internet board -

[SNWOLF]

If Max Roach took his anger out on Abbey Lincoln, or others, that definitely should not be swept under the rug, and it is not prurient psychobabble to bring it up. It seems to me that "psychobabble" used in a dismissive sense, is a convenient copout for men who are tone-deaf to psychological territory and emotional transparency.

Max was one of MANY girl/wife beaters in the jazz community, and part of it is cultural, as Miles Davis relates in his autobiography, being so impressed by Eckstein slapping about bitches etc. In addition to that, what I've seen, as I'm sure many of you have when observing musician behaviour, is, despite the abundance of expressive and/or creative ideas, many musicians are mama's boys, they have dependent personalities. They either create a barrier between themselves and the world with "The Tough Guy", "The Imperious Geek", "The Aloof Artsnob" get it?

They get wasted to regulate negative, "real world" emotion, and assault their woman to assuage anger and frustration. They are just as dependent on women as they are on alcohol or smack. Their woman has POWER over them, and these little vain lords can't stand being in chains - BOOF.

Violence in jazz isn't going to be readily dealt with in the near future for so many reasons. Although jazz has become more polite and genteel, it is still played and listened to primarily by men - the sort of superficially intelligent men that are often divorced from their emotions, but use the music for catharsis. Although "Jazz Male Style" has mutated from machismo to "geekchismo", that fundamental alienation from emotions prevents jazz musicians talking about all sorts of stuff.

[JSngry]

Well, isn't THAT special.

[marcello]

The above is a rash generalization, to be sure, and is far, far from the reality that I see from the many musicians I personally know.

Now having said that, Artists in general, in THIS society do depend on their mates for economic survival, and that causes tension. It's almost the same in any two earner family except that the sensitivity ( mama's boys? ) that a Artist posesses comes into play here. There can be a lot of self-doubt about what they do as a Man/Artist in Western Culture.

You can't tar all Jazz muscians with the same brush here. I hope that wasn't your intent.

As far as Max's abuse goes, I hope he grew as a Man and worked out his frustrations in a more productive way. I'll bet that's the case.

[Guest youmustbe]

I'm told that Max is in a nursing home in Brooklyn. Alzheimers, I believe is the official diagnosis.

Not to beat a dead horse, lots of lurid stories about Max, but most of these 'geniuses are not 'nice' 'normal' people. I don't understand why you folks are always shocked by this.

If they were 'nice' and 'normal', they wouldn't have been the great musicians that we all admire, but rather they would have been fans, on this board, talking endlessly about Hank Mobley (How many posts about Hank, on this and Blue Note board in the last 5 years? 6522? Or did I miss one?)

[SNWOLF]

Of course I was speaking in a generalised way. The tone announces that from the get-go. The "mama's boy" quip, marcello, was not any reference to sensitivity, artistic or otherwise, but to the parcticular type of emotional dependency evinced by many artists.

It's a damn shame Max got dragged into this issue when he's in bad shape: I love the man's music, I own a lot of discs he plays on, and some he has led (although they're a lot scarcer to come by.)

I am not derogating jazz, or artists by bringing up issues which appear to be distinctly uncomfortable for people who imagine themselves to be relatively forward thinking. Jazz is an art, a life, a love. But it is not a RELIGION, a totalistic glory box that can't be besmirched by those who point out the sores.

Your remark JSngry: " Well, isn't THAT special." Come on, I thought you had more intellectual chops than that. I really enjoy reading some of your posts, and you cop out with some adolescent sarcasm. We both know you can raise your argumentation to a higher level. How 'bout it?

[JSngry]

The argumentation was at the level of that which was being argued.

[sheldonm]

But it is not a RELIGION,

....sure it is! B-)

[Randy Twizzle]

Although jazz has become more polite and genteel, it is still played and listened to primarily by men - the sort of superficially intelligent men that are often divorced from their emotions, but use the music for catharsis.

[TedR]

"We both know you can raise your argumentation to a higher level. How 'bout it?"

That must be testosterone talking.

[SNWOLF]

"We both know you can raise your argumentation to a higher level. How 'bout it?"

That must be testosterone talking.

No excess of testosterone, but crotchetiness, certainly. However the incapacity of some members to confront a thorny issue, to sidestep it with nervous or peevish evasive drollery, is demonstrated again. Genuine respect of a form, and an artist, is predicated upon the realisation that they are good, bad, and ugly, not something untouchable you deify and defend like a guard dog for right-thinking enlightenment. Humanity is messy; great jazz musicians are often messy. That does not diminish their contribution.

[JSngry]

Well, DUH.

Didn't need a Reeader's Digest version of James Lincoln Collier to realize that.

[marcello]

Well, DUH.

Didn't need a Reeader's Digest version of James Lincoln Collier to realize that.

Thank You for That, Jim!

[AllenLowe]

didn't mean to start a storm here - Max is a great drummer no matter what. But I do get a little weary of praising the humanity of people of whom we really know too little -

[SNWOLF]

Well, DUH.

Didn't need a Reeader's Digest version of James Lincoln Collier to realize that.

Another evasion. No, I'm not inclined to sit back, light my pipe and enjoy some timeless wisdom from Reader's Digest or Collier. Nevertheless, I believe liberal pieties, pretensions, and hypocrisies can be critiqued - from within.

In terms of starting a storm, as Allen Lowe put it - yeah, that's a shame. Luxuriating in a mutual admiration society while taking pot shots at obvious targets (conservatives, Marsalis etc et al - no, I'm not cheerleading for them either) seems like the path of least resistance to me.

Going by what I've read here, most boardmembers are of a liberal persuasion, as am I. But there's too much hagiography, and a very real fear of fronting up to uncomfortable subjects. It's a seige mentality, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that a liberal response to reality embraced transparency and debate.

[maren]

It's one thing to say Max Roach beat Abbey Lincoln, which people here have said

and to say that it is inexcusable, which people here have said

and to articulate the difference between respect for his artistry versus "hagiography" of his entire life and every act in it, which people here have done.

It's another to extrapolate a one-size-fits-all, admitting-of-no-exceptions, presented-as-airtight-case, single-psychological-path explanation of a "pathologic cascade" that culminates in domestic violence, insist that it applies peculiarly and distinctively to the world of jazz -- and then to equate lack of interest in discussing that grand theory with "sweeping domestic violence under the rug."

[doubleM]

That was very well put, Maren.

[SNWOLF]

It's one thing to say Max Roach beat Abbey Lincoln, which people here have said

and to say that it is inexcusable, which people here have said

and to articulate the difference between respect for his artistry versus "hagiography" of his entire life and every act in it, which people here have done.

It's another to extrapolate a one-size-fits-all, admitting-of-no-exceptions, presented-as-airtight-case, single-psychological-path explanation of a "pathologic cascade" that culminates in domestic violence, insist that it applies peculiarly and distinctively to the world of jazz -- and then to equate lack of interest in discussing that grand theory with "sweeping domestic violence under the rug."

Maren, the extrapolations are yours. Hagiographical inferences did not refer to Roach specifically - he became a springboard for a general "discussion" with regard to "liberal in theory" but not in practice tendencies, particularly pertaining to the jazz world's defensive attitude to criticism, as evidenced by your post.

If you examine my texts, when they are presented generally it is for purely rhetorical effect in order to emphasis the subject(s) and provoke debate (seige mentality kills that at birth, however). Otherwise I qualify my statements.

If I was on a conservative board and presented criticism of right-wing shibboleths I imagine I wouild receive the same response. It's dichotomous reasoning that get's people so tribalistic, territorial, and worked up in the first place. Forget allegiences and just think.

[TedR]

I just think...........we should discuss narcissism.........in the jazz community of course........any examples come to mind??

[Larry Kart]

"I just think...........we should discuss narcissism.........in the jazz community of course........any examples come to mind??"

Yes. Reportedly, Stan Getz washed his hands BEFORE urinating.