doubleM Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 How did this thread about Max Roach's health devolve into stories about what someone heard Jimmy Smith say? C'mon, now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randissimo Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 It's one thing to say Max Roach beat Abbey Lincoln, which people here have said and to say that it is inexcusable, which people here have said and to articulate the difference between respect for his artistry versus "hagiography" of his entire life and every act in it, which people here have done. It's another to extrapolate a one-size-fits-all, admitting-of-no-exceptions, presented-as-airtight-case, single-psychological-path explanation of a "pathologic cascade" that culminates in domestic violence, insist that it applies peculiarly and distinctively to the world of jazz -- and then to equate lack of interest in discussing that grand theory with "sweeping domestic violence under the rug." Maren, the extrapolations are yours. Hagiographical inferences did not refer to Roach specifically - he became a springboard for a general "discussion" with regard to "liberal in theory" but not in practice tendencies, particularly pertaining to the jazz world's defensive attitude to criticism, as evidenced by your post. If you examine my texts, when they are presented generally it is for purely rhetorical effect in order to emphasis the subject(s) and provoke debate (seige mentality kills that at birth, however). Otherwise I qualify my statements. If I was on a conservative board and presented criticism of right-wing shibboleths I imagine I wouild receive the same response. It's dichotomous reasoning that get's people so tribalistic, territorial, and worked up in the first place. Forget allegiences and just think. ouch....so many big words......where is that dictionary!!! WORD... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 It's one thing to say Max Roach beat Abbey Lincoln, which people here have said and to say that it is inexcusable, which people here have said and to articulate the difference between respect for his artistry versus "hagiography" of his entire life and every act in it, which people here have done. It's another to extrapolate a one-size-fits-all, admitting-of-no-exceptions, presented-as-airtight-case, single-psychological-path explanation of a "pathologic cascade" that culminates in domestic violence, insist that it applies peculiarly and distinctively to the world of jazz -- and then to equate lack of interest in discussing that grand theory with "sweeping domestic violence under the rug." Maren, the extrapolations are yours. Hagiographical inferences did not refer to Roach specifically - he became a springboard for a general "discussion" with regard to "liberal in theory" but not in practice tendencies, particularly pertaining to the jazz world's defensive attitude to criticism, as evidenced by your post. If you examine my texts, when they are presented generally it is for purely rhetorical effect in order to emphasis the subject(s) and provoke debate (seige mentality kills that at birth, however). Otherwise I qualify my statements. If I was on a conservative board and presented criticism of right-wing shibboleths I imagine I wouild receive the same response. It's dichotomous reasoning that get's people so tribalistic, territorial, and worked up in the first place. Forget allegiences and just think. Sometimes it's better to forget thinking and just LISTEN. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maren Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 That was very well put, Maren. Thank you DoubleM!!! At least one person thought so!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 (edited) Maren, we all know you're the real "voice of reason" on this board! Edited February 20, 2005 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randissimo Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 Ok, here it is: Max Roach has spent a great portion of his adult life being a loathsome human being. Beating Abbey Lincoln is only a part of it, if you want to know the truth. However, the rest of his adult life has been spent making powerful music, and creating a public persona that is an inspiration for many of us who seek to maintain a shred of dignity while making music that goes against the commercial pressures, not just of the industry, but of society as a whole. Now, do you think that I'm so stupid as to think that the second excuses the first? Or that the the first invalidates the second? Or that to acknowledge the reality of the private life lessens the inspiration created by the public one? Trust me, I'm not. I'm also not so perpetually shook up over the conflict between the two realities that I have to qualify every discussion of Max Roach with one sort of disclaimer or another. You meet a lot of imperfect people in life, people whose nastiness and beauty co-exists in frighteningly large amounts, and in frighteningly equal measures. You kearn to deal with it. To negate either the good or the bad is dishonest. But you choose which to react to under any given circumstance. And as long as the discussion is on the "public" Max Roach, I show the love, because that is what motivates the love. If we were to discuss his loathsome personal habits (and, really, why would we on an ongoing basis, unless we were involved in them ourselves?), then that's another matter entirely. Life is love, and love ain't no fairy tale. Right on Jim,, very profound and well stated... Max Roach is one of my most enduring inspirations. My mother turned me on to the Emarcy record, "Brown & Roach Inc" when I was about 12 yrs old.. I have since listened to many recordings and have caught Mr. Roach live several times in Chicago. I have always been impressed with his impeccable musicianship, use of polyrhythms, and lyrical sense of composition. His solos always fascinate me. They are rich in rhythmic complexities, phrases & colors, innovative themes & variations, and always spellbounding! Who Max Roach was and is in his personable life is of little interest to me.. The positive influence of his artististic accomplishments means much more. I and many many other drummers salute this man for his profound and inspiring contributions to the evolution of creative modern drumming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 hey, Max is the worlds greatest drummer - up until about 1965, when he seems to have forgotten how to swing. I find a lot of his later stuff self-consciously contemporary, sounding like another older musician unsuccessfully trying to keep up with the times - just one man's opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neveronfriday Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 ... like another older musician unsuccessfully trying to keep up with the times - just one man's opinion. Hmm. Made me think of a conversation I had not so long ago. The question we were debating was if a musician really has to keep up with the times. I haven't decided for myself yet, but there are a whole lot of people I can think of that didn't do that, really. I like what they're doing, despite that fact ... or rather, because of that fact. Think of Ed Thigpen. He isn't really doing anything he didn't/couldn't do way back when. He's just perfected his craft and, to me, is one of the most exciting drummers to watch. But maybe that's what you meant ... not standing still and working on your craft? Or did you mean adapting to new styles, picking up new techniques of the day, etc.? Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 I dunno, man, the stuff w/Odean starts strong but kinda tapers off over the years, but the stuff w/Billy Harper hits MIGHTY hard. Bad choice of phrase in the context of this thread, perhaps, but nevertheless... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randissimo Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 hey, Max is the worlds greatest drummer - up until about 1965, when he seems to have forgotten how to swing. I find a lot of his later stuff self-consciously contemporary, sounding like another older musician unsuccessfully trying to keep up with the times - just one man's opinion. Who said anything about Max being the world's greatest drummer?? This isn't a competition or contest... There are obviously many many great drummers in the world, well known and unknown, and all too numerous to list here... Max in my humble opinion, is in that unique and honorable category of "Jazz Innovators/Drums" that is timeless and profound, and will continue to inspire generations to come... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 How did this thread about Max Roach's health devolve into stories about what someone heard Jimmy Smith say? C'mon, now. I was trying to make a simple point. All the people discussed in this thread (Roach, Miles, Smith, etc) were revolutionary musicians...there legacy is beyond question. BUT...they were also human beings, as we all know, human beings are pretty fucked up (myself included). The stories I was relating, were just pointing out that even though a person had bad experiences with the HUMANS dicussed here..they still love their music regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neveronfriday Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 All we need now are some paparazzi shots. You know, Miles with his pants around his ankles, in a drunken stupor, trying in vain to put on a 70s disco LP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marcello Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 hey, Max is the worlds greatest drummer - up until about 1965, when he seems to have forgotten how to swing. I find a lot of his later stuff self-consciously contemporary, sounding like another older musician unsuccessfully trying to keep up with the times - just one man's opinion. I've heard this before, but I don't hear it myself. He evolved and distilled his style as he went on through the years. I always thought he was great! Regal, even. I have a wonderful tape that I made one night in NYC of Max's band with Odean, Bridgewater and Calvin Hill at the Blue Note ( there was some comedy because I sat between Cecil Taylor and Stanley Crouch with Max alternating between them. They each bitched about the other to Max ) on one side of the tape and Art Blakey's band with Blanchard, Johnnny O'Neal etc. at Mikell's on the other side ,recorded on the same night ! I don't know....it's pretty swingin'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randissimo Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 All we need now are some paparazzi shots. You know, Miles with his pants around his ankles, in a drunken stupor, trying in vain to put on a 70s disco LP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted February 20, 2005 Report Share Posted February 20, 2005 You know, Miles with his pants around his ankles, in a drunken stupor, trying in vain to put on a 70s disco LP. Wow, how many times did I do that back then! Okay, I was trippin', not drunk, and I was trying to smash the disco LP, and my pants were probably hanging from a tree, not around my ankles, and...come to think of it, there's nothing similar here at all...never mind! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 (edited) nobody made it into a contest - I just said I thought Max was the world's greatest drummer - until about 1965. What I am referring to, re-changing with the times, is the problem some musicians have when trying to keep up with perceived changes in the music, instead of doing what they do best and adapting THAT to the changes. I heard this negatively impact on Al Haig when I knew him ( in some of his later playing he floundered a bit with modality), in Walter Bishop's later work (his system of fourths), on Art Pepper (brilliant when not trying to conjure up the ghost of Coltrane). With Roach I heard a style based on an iron grip and steel-like time-keeping become mechanical in the search for freer forms of jazz. Nothing he played post 1965 is as musical nor as interesting as his work with, say, Sonny Rollins in 1956. That's just the way I hear it. I find Max profoundly complex, by the way. He was capable of both great orthodoxy (in some of his social views, see Notes and Tones) and personal generousity. While ocasionally hung up on a racially determinist view of jazz (as in declaring it can be played only by Afircan American, non-Europeans) he also was among the earliest advocates of Lenny Tristano, and also commisioned work from Johnny Carisi when Carisi was doing little else in a jazz context; also, from what I have heard privately, Max commited a great many humantarian acts in his private life. So all was not negative. I just cannot shake the brutality of his treatment of Abby Lincoln. I find it unforgiveable. Edited February 21, 2005 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 I find Max profoundly complex, by the way. That, I think, says it all. From there, we're on our own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 I just cannot shake the brutality of his treatment of Abby Lincoln. I find it unforgiveable. Yikes! If I see the name of one of my all-time favorite vocalists mis-spelled one more time...................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indestructible! Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 (edited) Â I just cannot shake the brutality of his treatment of Abby Lincoln. I find it unforgiveable. Yikes! If I see the name of one of my all-time favorite vocalists mis-spelled one more time...................... What, you'll send Max after him? OK, bad taste, I know... to make this relevant: I agree wholeheartedly with Jim here. There are so many people whom I consider to fall in that "genius" category (there's a much abused term) that are... how shall I say it?... morally reprehensible at best. Yes, jazz is full of these people, but so is any other profession, and I do consider it possible to separate the person from his/her work. Hell, if I couldn't make that separation, I'd wouldn't have most of my music collection, most of the art that hangs on my walls, many of the books on my shelf, and many of the ideas I've come to appreciate over the years. I love Max's WORK, as a musician and social activist, although he may not be the poster boy for moral behavior. I also love the work of many of my colleagues in my chosen profession, several of whom are complete and utter pigs. However, if they engage in morally reprehensible behavior in my presence, or I hear through information that I trust, I let them know pretty quickly that that shit doesn't fly with me. Having said that, there's always going to be a balancing act between judging one's work and one's personality... And, as Jim is wont to say, "Your mileage may vary". From my end, if we as a society can't separate the difference between one's WORK and one's personality/moral behaviors, well... my guess is that we wouldn't have advanced nearly as far as we have. I'll leave it to y'all to decide if that's a good thing or not. Cheers, Shane Edited February 21, 2005 by Indestructible! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest youmustbe Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 My last comment: Max, aside from what his personal piccadilos might have been, had an elegance, a dignity on stage, like Duke Ellington, that was an inspiration not only to Blacks, but to Whites. He transcended being a Jazz drummer. Just like Coltrane transcended being a Jazz sax player. He was one of the FEW, the truly GREATS in this music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY it used to have another letter but Max knocked it off - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alankin Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 (edited) EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEk! Edited February 21, 2005 by alankin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maren Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 There's a profile of Abbey Lincoln on AAJ with some interesting quotes (here's the link: http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=537) and a profile on NPR with interview clips: http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=537 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 (edited) ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYÂ ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYÂ ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYÂ ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYÂ ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYÂ ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYÂ ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYÂ ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYÂ ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYÂ ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBYÂ ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY ABBY it used to have another letter but Max knocked it off - I find this unforgiveable. (Edited to more accurately express sentiment) Edited February 21, 2005 by James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Posted February 21, 2005 Report Share Posted February 21, 2005 I'd just like to say one prayer for Max's immortal soul, one for Miss Lincoln's, and let it go at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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