a tiny rant/question on selling Mosaics for profit

[AfricaBrass]

It doesn't bother me if some people buy sets with plans to sell them in the future.

I'm just happy that someone is buying the set from Mosaic in the first place. I figure the more sets they sell, the better the chances that they'll stay around and be in business for a long time.

These days it's pretty easy to keep track of a Mosaic set's availability status. I guess I would only be bothered by this subject if a set just hit running low and one person came in and bought ALL the remaining sets. I know it's there right, but it wouldn't be cool IMO.

I've used the argument with my wife that Mosaic sets increase in value. That has really helped me convince her to buy them for me as gifts or look the other way as my collection has grown.

I've never sold any of my sets, so you can see I'm not just investing in them, but sometimes I see dollar signs in my wifes eyes as she has looked at my sets.

[desertblues]

Yes, Virginia, there are folks out there who buy multiple copies of sets like Mosaics and sell them on ebay when they go oop. I have bought several hard-to-find Mosaics from one of these guys (like an LP copy of the Blue Mitchell and Buck Clayton LP set). It turns out that these are worth a whole lot more on ebay now than when I bought them - but I don't care about that as I have no desire to part with them. I'm glad this guy auctioned them since it would have been very difficult to find unplayed mint sets like these! I have sold a few Mosaics myself simply because I wasn't going to listen to them anymore, what's wrong with that? It's not about greed it's just supply and demand. B-)

[Dan Gould]

I should point out that the Cole box is a) huge and b) rare as hen's teeth. Some Mosaic's fetch hugely inflated prices, but I would be inclined to quibble less about that particular set.

As a Socialist, I decry the Capitalist system that makes such abuses possible. As a future Social Studies teacher, I understand the law of supply and demand and recognize the inevitability (under this system) as such. But, like the man says, understanding it doesn't mean I have to like it.

Yes, but will you teach it, or do some re-educating, I mean, teaching alternative theories?

I just had a vision of the Seinfeld episode when the communist who Elaine is dating starts indoctrinating Kramer, who promptly loses his job as the Department Store Santa.

"He's a Commie! He's a Commie!"

*********************

As far as Chris' point about the sets being in the hands of people who want the music, that's as silly as the complaints about auctions that generate high bids because of the rareness of the item.

If someone grabs an OOP Mosaic just to turn a profit, do you think they're sitting on it, or putting it on ebay to make their money? The only people with Mosaic sets who are biding their time, waiting to sell are our wives, who will be unloading them someday. The guys who grab a Mosaic to sell at profit are gonna get rid of that sucker pretty damn quick: its stock, not an investment. So its going to end up with someone who wants it for the music very quickly.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

This is a crazy thread...

I keep writing a post to respond but every time I go to hit "Add Reply", I look at it and figure, "Why bother"?

There is nothing wrong with someone buying Mosaics for any reason!

In my opinion, it's much better when Mosaic sells out a set than it is for them to "wait around" until every single buyer who may ever want this set orders one from them and keeps it forever.

This is simple economics at work here... that and people crying over spilt milk.

Later,

Kevin

PS. PLEASE, PLEASE go speculate on Mosaic's The Complete CBS Recordings of Eddie Condon (#152) on LP! Please! They will never sell out of that set if someone doesn't do it.

[Dan Gould]

Allen, is definitely not greed when a legitimate auction creates a purchase price of $900.

It would be greed if someone offered the set for $900, set price.

The market may not be truly "free" but no one is forcing anyone to bid a Mosaic set to that level, or for that matter, willingly accepting a set price of $900 either.

[AllenLowe]

GREED GREED GREED Greed greedgreed GREED GREEDGREED GREED GREED Greed greedgreed GREED GREED GREED GREED GREED Greed greedgreed GREED GREED GREED GREED GREED Greed greedgreed GREED GREED -

just my opinion - I know what you mean Dan, but it reminds me of the milk shortage when neighborhood grocery stores were doubling their prices -

Edited February 9, 2005 by AllenLowe

[AllenLowe]

and while we're at it the price for the Percy France CD has gone up to $200 - and that doesn't include postage or handling (do you think this is a charity?)

[Ron S]

Allen,

A little Economics 101:

And yes, this WILL be on the final exam.

[Dan Gould]

and while we're at it the price for the Percy France CD has gone up to $200 - and that doesn't include postage or handling (do you think this is a charity?)

Well then, I guess the free market does work: Cadence has it in stock, and I think their price is a bit lower, so I guess I'll have to take my business to them.

[AllenLowe]

c'mon now, don't give me that supply and demand cheese, Ron - the rule is not supply and demand but whatever the market will bear - basically, meaning that people will get as much as they can for anything from key chains to heating oil -

[AllenLowe]

by the way, I'm very glad we can have a civilized conversation about economics - I think I'll dedicate my posts to the memory of Robert Heilbroner, who just passed a few weeks ago -

[AllenLowe]

sellers manipulater supply all the time - like oil companies, etc. I'll bet this guy has 250 Nat Cole sets under his bed -

[Ron S]

c'mon now, don't give me that supply and demand cheese, Ron - the rule is not supply and demand but whatever the market will bear - basically, meaning that people will get as much as they can for anything from  key chains to heating oil -

With all due respect, Alan, "whatever the market will bear" IS the theory of supply and demand. That's what that classic graph means, in economics/mathematics terms.

Dammit, now I've done it--turned this into an economics thread. (well, I WAS an econ. major in college )

[Dan Gould]

Let's face it, folks:

When it comes to jazz and Mosaics, we're all Communists like Alexander:

It is the right of the people to own all Mosaic sets, in perpetuity, at no cost to themselves!

Open the vaults! He who will not reissue shall lose all rights and privileges in favor of the collective good of all jazz fans!

Damn, I sound like the Red Menace.

[Ron S]

Let's face it, folks:

When it comes to jazz and Mosaics, we're all Communists like Alexander:

It is the right of the people to own all Mosaic sets, in perpetuity, at no cost to themselves!

Open the vaults!  He who will not reissue shall lose all rights and privileges in favor of the collective good of all jazz fans!

Damn, I sound like the Red Menace. 

Something tells me Mr. Cuscuna and associates would not count themselves among the Comrades.

[AllenLowe]

wait - supply and demand says that when supply is low and demand high, prices will go up - "what the market will bear" means that people charge as much as they like, even if the demand is high and the SUPPLY is high - that is contrary to the law, which says if demand is high and supply high prices will go down or at least stay even - hence gasoline and oil where prices have gone up and up even as supplies have been steady - so the market does not really necessarily observe supply and demand -

Edited February 9, 2005 by AllenLowe

[RDK]

Damn! When I sold/auctioned my "extra" NKC set I only got $300 for it. I was robbed!

[RDK]

Allen, let me ask you what you think would be a viable solution...

[Ron S]

wait - supply and demand says that when supply is low and demand high, prices will go up - "what the market will bear" means that people charge as much as they like, even if the demand is high and the SUPPLY is high - that is contrary to the law, which says if demand is high and supply high prices will go down or at least stay even - hence gasoline and oil where prices have gone up and up even as supplies have been steady - so the market does not really necessarily observe supply and demand -

No, all that would mean on the Supply and Demand graph for a particular product is that the Demand line would be more horizontal (less elasticity of demand) and at a higher price, i.e., that purchasers are willing to pay a higher price per unit of the product no matter what the level of supply.

You know, Allen, I think if we continue this discussion much longer, we'll make the rest of the board do this:

Or even worse, this:

[AllenLowe]

well, I'm wide awake here - what would be my solution? Personal responsbility, personal ethics, buyer rationality (because this is a two-way street) - and a 50 year public domain music law as in Europe -

[Brad]

sellers manipulater supply all the time - like oil companies, etc. I'll bet this guy has 250 Nat Cole sets under his bed -

I have no way to refute this but this has to be the most ludicrous statement I've heard from a normally rational person.

This was typical economics. Again, I repeat: when people want a lot of a commodity and there's not a lot of it around, the price will go up. He got some person (I'll leave it at that) to pay a ridiculous price.

Let's move on.

[RDK]

well, I'm wide awake here - what would be my solution? Personal responsbility, 

Okay. To me that means buy it if you want it, but don't come crying to me if you don't purchase it when it's available and then complain when it's sold out. The fact that it will someday go oop isn't an issue - that's a fact of life, whether from Mosaic or any ol' record company.

personal ethics,

Personally I don't know anyone who does buy Mosaics only to resell at a profit at a later date. As others have mentioned, there are better ways to make money. That said, I'd be lying if I didn't tell you that I've bought sets off the "endangered" list knowing that, if I didn't like, I could always sell it and recoup my investment. It's better than buying new CDs and have them depreciate upon opening. Besides, it's good for Mosaic in that they sell out and maximize their profits.

buyer rationality (because this is a two-way street)

I suppose you mean in regards Ebay auctions. It's very true that the buyer is the one setting the selling price in an auction. So you suggest restraint? As in, I'm only gonna bid this high 'cause that's all it's worth to me. But if it's "worth more" to someone else why shouldn't the high bidder get it? In a fixed-price sale, if the asking price is "too high" then nobody is forcing the buyer to buy it. If the seller is serious about selling, he'll lower the price to market rates. Supply and demand and all that.

and a 50 year public domain music law as in Europe

That's a completely different issue entirely. But if a Mosaic set goes oop, you might as well just burn a friend's copy instead of purchasing a ripped-off Euro version, right? The artist won't get any money from it either way and the dough you save can go back into Mosaic with another purchase.

[AllenLowe]

actually, even with a 50 year public domain, publishing would be paid. And it's not a Euro ripoff if it's legal. And that would allow someone to reissue Nat Cole legally and undercut the rip-off market (and there would not be an ethics issue once Mosaic has stop selling it). And enough of this supply and demand talk. Sometimes it applies, sometimes not. Something is worth what someone will pay for it, regardless of supply and demand. It has nothing to do with demand, it has only to do with what the seller wants to make and what some crazy person is willing to pay.

[AllenLowe]

and by the way, I did check under this guy's bed - he's got 235 copies of Nat Cole there -

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

Down from 250? His brother's low a quart in the IQ dept. and passed the others off for $11 each on some Malaysian cut-out site.

Edited February 9, 2005 by Son-of-a-Weizen