jbs-tom Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 (edited) Why (!) have drugs been always part of the hard bop jazz scene? Fact is: At this period of time was no education of drugs or any clarifications of the fact what happens when you use drugs ! Do you think an education of drugs could had changed the jazz scene ?? ... it doesn't matter ... , bebop,hard bop cool jazz whatever.... focusing on a time where have been no education of drugs ! so, have drugs changed jazz in special direction ? >> no masterpieces of jazz without drugs ?? -- thank you in advance for your suggestions, thoughts, links, answers and more ... ! Edited April 25, 2005 by jbs-tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 (edited) From the biographies I've read (Miles, Bird), it already started in the bebop period (late 40's) Some links on the subject: Gerry Mulligan on drug addiction THE PLAYBOY PANEL: NARCOTICS AND THE JAZZ MUSICIANS (1960) Edited April 25, 2005 by Claude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robviti Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 you'd better keep going back further than that. drugs have always been present in the lives of some musicians, including those who play jazz. here's an excerpt from a book on louis armstrong, a quote from pops himself: "Speaking of 1931 - we did call ourselves Vipers, which could have been anybody from all walks of life that smoked and respected gage. That was our cute little name for marijuana, and it was a misdemeanor in those days. Much different from the pressure and charges the law lays on a guy who smokes pot - a later name for the same thing which is cute to hear nowadays. We always looked at pot as a sort of medicine, a cheap drunk and with much better thoughts than one that's full of liquor." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 Thanks for the links, Claude. That Playboy panel discussion looks interesting, though I have to say that on first blush, its hard to imagine a 100% commitment to absolute truth in that kind of public forum. But I haven't read it yet, so that's just an instinctual thing. Its certainly interesting that in the first few moments, Duke states that he doesn't think that drug addiction is an occupational hazard for the musician. Hard to agree with that when you consider how many people thought it was the junk that made Bird play like he did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardbopjazz Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 We had a similar discussion about a year ago. Drugs in jazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbs-tom Posted April 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 Fact is: At this period of time was no education of drugs or any clarifications of the fact what happens when you use drugs ! Do you think an education of drugs could had changed the jazz scene ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzypaul Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 Fact is: At this period of time was no education of drugs or any clarifications of the fact what happens when you use drugs ! Do you think an education of drugs could had changed the jazz scene ?? No. Two words: Kenny Kirkland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 Why is hard bop singled out here. Was there more drug use in hard bop than in other forms of jazz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbs-tom Posted April 25, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 ... it doesn't matter ... , bebop,hard bop cool jazz whatever.... focusing on a time where have been no education of drugs ! so, have drugs changed jazz in special direction ? >> no masterpieces of jazz without drugs ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Moments Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 THE PLAYBOY PANEL: NARCOTICS AND THE JAZZ MUSICIANS (1960) who is the drummer that stan is talking about? KENT0N: There is one particular drummer who used to play with the band and is really big in the field of jazz - he had the problem, but he straightened out and he beat the situation wonderfully well. But it's miserable the way the police still stay after him, they keep looking at him - every time be turns around there's someone who's saying, "Let's talk to you, let's examine you " and sometimes - he's pretty patient with them, but every once in a while - you can just see this look on his face: "I wish everyone would leave me alone." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 Fact is: At this period of time was no education of drugs or any clarifications of the fact what happens when you use drugs ! Do you think an education of drugs could had changed the jazz scene ?? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 Of course not. Education about drugs exists today, and drugs are still a part of the music scene. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted April 25, 2005 Report Share Posted April 25, 2005 To be fair, the question is whether more education would have had an effect, not whether it would have erased drugs from the scene. I have to think that education and awareness would have had some effect-- heroin use has been largely driven underground (relatively speaking) in the last 20-30 years. How *significant* that difference would have been, I don't know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 Can't say for sure who the drummer was that Kenton was talking about, but my guess would be the recently deceased Stan Levey, who did have a drug problem and beat it and, of course, played with Kenton. But was Levey "really big in the field of jazz"? If it was Levey, "really big" seems an exaggeration (Levey's undoubted talent aside), but then exaggeration was often Kenton's mode (e.g. "This is an OR-chestra!") The only other drummer I can think of who played with Kenton and was a jazz notable in 1960 was Shelly Manne, who definitely would fit the "really big in jazz" label, but I'm virtually certain that Shelly was clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbs-tom Posted April 26, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 Of course not. Education about drugs exists today, and drugs are still a part of the music scene. ... of course we have today education of drugs - but the question is: what if we would have it NOT (like all those jazz players) would have been the creative output of these jazz musicians the same ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Moments Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 Can't say for sure who the drummer was that Kenton was talking about, but my guess would be the recently deceased Stan Levey, who did have a drug problem and beat it and, of course, played with Kenton. But was Levey "really big in the field of jazz"? If it was Levey, "really big" seems an exaggeration (Levey's undoubted talent aside), but then exaggeration was often Kenton's mode (e.g. "This is an OR-chestra!") The only other drummer I can think of who played with Kenton and was a jazz notable in 1960 was Shelly Manne, who definitely would fit the "really big in jazz" label, but I'm virtually certain that Shelly was clean. another jazz mystery! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 Levey was the name that came to mind immediately when I read that post. I've read a couple of interviews where he was pretty up-front in talking about his struggle with addiction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe M Posted April 26, 2005 Report Share Posted April 26, 2005 Fact is: At this period of time was no education of drugs or any clarifications of the fact what happens when you use drugs ! Do you think an education of drugs could had changed the jazz scene ?? No. Two words: Kenny Kirkland. Kenny's case is a tragic one, and there's stories of other current, high profile jazz musicians, having similar problems. But I don't think drug use in jazz today is any higher than it is in the general population. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazz Kat Posted April 28, 2005 Report Share Posted April 28, 2005 It was big on the rock scene too in the late 60's and early 70's. It's present in a lot of musicians' lives. That's all I got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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