Crusaders

[BFrank]

Listening to Southern Comfort and Chain reaction now. Very pleasing!!

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Glad you like 'em!

[JSngry]

Yeah, the thing about The Crusaders of that era is that no matter how slick the top got (and sometimes it got REAL slick...), the bottom remained/maintained a real, down-home, genuine, of the people and by the people groove.That shit can't be faked, although people on both sides of the "appreciation" fence can be fooled into thinking that it can. But it can't.

[Jazz Kat]

Listening to Southern Comfort and Chain reaction now. Very pleasing!!

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Glad you like 'em!

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Yeah, I mean I wasn't BLOWN AWAY composition wise, but there was some nice playing, and I liked it.

[Guest akanalog]

larry carlton had any "best years"?

ho ho ho.

also-wilton felder is awesome on bass on donald byrd's "ethiopian knights" which perhaps a crusaders fan would like as joe sample is also present.

[Jim R]

Was out shoppin' today, and found (and bought) new CD releases of "Crusaders 1" and "The 2nd Crusade". I'm not sure I've ever seen either of these on CD before, and these were the albums that began the run Jim S. mentioned above. I don't understand why it took so long. Also, I'm wondering just how freshly-released these babies are, becuase I just tried to Google the covers, and came up blank (found images for the LP's, but not the CD's).

This has got me going again (nostalgia )- now I'm kicking myself for not picking up "Southern Comfort", "Chain Reaction", "Scratch", etc, when I've stumbled onto them in recent years. Oh well, I should still be able to track these down...

Oh- one weird thing. The last track ("Do You Remember When") on "The 2nd Crusade" cuts off abruptly near the end, rather than fading out as it should have (I think). If they had to cut it off to fit the whole album onto one CD, they could have at least faded it.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Jim R

[Guest youmustbe]

I have photos from Carnegie Hall when Larry was on guitar.

But I remember a packed Carnegie with the Crusaders, with if I remember correctly, Garnett Brown on trombone, I know it was Popwell on bass, as opening to Chick's Quartet with Brecker, Gomez, Gadd.

And it wasn't part of a Festival, just a regular concert and almost sold out! Those days are gone! Like Weather Report in '78, 2 nights with a 3rd added by popular demand and all packed...Grover Washington almost selling out Radio City Music Hall!!!

[Noj]

These are my favorite two Crusaders albums from the funky latter days. "Mystique Blues" and "A Message From The Inner City."

[Jim R]

These are my favorite two Crusaders albums from the funky latter days. "Mystique Blues" and "A Message From The Inner City."

Yeah!

I was just browsing at Musty Groove, and noticed they've got this in the new arrivals ($13.99):

Better image.

[mikelz777]

Was out shoppin' today, and found (and bought) new CD releases of "Crusaders 1" and "The 2nd Crusade". I'm not sure I've ever seen either of these on CD before, and these were the albums that began the run Jim S. mentioned above. I don't understand why it took so long. Also, I'm wondering just how freshly-released these babies are, becuase I just tried to Google the covers, and came up blank (found images for the LP's, but not the CD's).

This has got me going again (nostalgia )- now I'm kicking myself for not picking up "Southern Comfort", "Chain Reaction", "Scratch", etc, when I've stumbled onto them in recent years. Oh well, I should still be able to track these down...

Oh- one weird thing. The last track ("Do You Remember When") on "The 2nd Crusade" cuts off abruptly near the end, rather than fading out as it should have (I think). If they had to cut it off to fit the whole album onto one CD, they could have at least faded it.

I've been looking for "The 2nd Crusade" for quite a long time but was never able to find a copy. If I did find one it was so expensive I wouldn't even consider it. Did the place you found them have any more? I'd love to pick one up. That and "Old Socks New Shoes" are the only gaps I have in my Crusaders collection up until Wayne Henderson left the group. In my opinion, it was all down hill from there starting with "Free As The Wind" as they became more pop-ish, slick and (over) produced. "Those Southern Knights" was the last of their releases that interested me. I have 13 of their CDs besides the Mosaic Jazz Crusaders box.

One rarity I stumbled on was "Pass The Plate" on the MoJazz label. It features a 5-part "suite" among other stuff. I'd also recommend all their live "Lighthouse" recordings.

Edited August 19, 2006 by mikelz777

[mikelz777]

These are my favorite two Crusaders albums from the funky latter days. "Mystique Blues" and "A Message From The Inner City."

Yeah!

I was just browsing at Musty Groove, and noticed they've got this in the new arrivals ($13.99):

Better image.

Do they have an online store?

[Jim R]

... I was talking about Dusty Groove (just a little joke there).

[mikelz777]

... I was talking about Dusty Groove (just a little joke there).

Cool I wasn't aware of them before now.

Weird that I could never find "The 2nd Crusade" before now. I'm glad I saw this thread or I might not have discovered it. They must have just re-released it recently because I see it is available all over the internet. I'm definitely going to pick this one up along with the RVG versions of Donald Byrd's "Royal Flush" and "Off To The Races".

[mikelz777]

Was out shoppin' today, and found (and bought) new CD releases of "Crusaders 1" and "The 2nd Crusade". I'm not sure I've ever seen either of these on CD before, and these were the albums that began the run Jim S. mentioned above. I don't understand why it took so long. Also, I'm wondering just how freshly-released these babies are, becuase I just tried to Google the covers, and came up blank (found images for the LP's, but not the CD's).

This has got me going again (nostalgia )- now I'm kicking myself for not picking up "Southern Comfort", "Chain Reaction", "Scratch", etc, when I've stumbled onto them in recent years. Oh well, I should still be able to track these down...

Oh- one weird thing. The last track ("Do You Remember When") on "The 2nd Crusade" cuts off abruptly near the end, rather than fading out as it should have (I think). If they had to cut it off to fit the whole album onto one CD, they could have at least faded it.

I had the LP version of this way back when and I seem to recall that it cut off on there as well if I'm not mistaken. Maybe someone else here who plays vinyl can verify. I haven't heard this in over a decade but if I'm remembering it right, the cut-off kind of works in a way doesn't it?

I'd definitely recommend "Southern Comfort" as well as "Scratch". You might also want to consider their live sets at the Lighthouse. (3 separate CDs)

Edited August 19, 2006 by mikelz777

[Jim R]

Yeah, I'll be getting some of those other titles. As I said earlier in this thread, I had almost all of their 70's LP's back in the day. I don't rememeber that cutoff at all... maybe it's just my aging brain.

I forgot to mention it, but I also picked up the "At The Lighthouse" CD when I bought the two I mentioned. That one I never had on vinyl.

Oh, and be careful at Dusty Groove. We joke around here at how they seem to empty everybody's wallets unmercifully. I've been buying (too much) from them for about seven years now... great source, great service.

[Ed S]

I to had a lot of their 70s stuff. I've been looking for 2nd Crusade for a while now - thanks for posting the info.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I've got a few of those Blue Thumbs - "Scratch" is my favourite. "Images" is about as zero an album as you could hope never to find, in my view. I like some of their later stuff, too. "Rhapsody & blues" and "Street life" are great favourites.

So too is Randy Crawford's "Now we may begin" which was produced and accompanied by the band (plus a few others), and all but one of the songs written by Joe Sample.

MG

[mikelz777]

I've got a few of those Blue Thumbs - "Scratch" is my favourite. "Images" is about as zero an album as you could hope never to find, in my view. I like some of their later stuff, too. "Rhapsody & blues" and "Street life" are great favourites.

So too is Randy Crawford's "Now we may begin" which was produced and accompanied by the band (plus a few others), and all but one of the songs written by Joe Sample.

MG

"Scratch" is one of my favorites as well. I'd agree that "Images" is definitely one to avoid.

Way, way back when when I still had/played LPs I owned both "Rhapsody and Blues" as well as "Street Life". I remember nothing about "Rhapsody and Blues" which basically speaks for itself. "Street Life" makes my skin crawl and represents the ultimate in sell out in my opinion. As far as I'm concerned, the Crusaders ceased to be the Crusaders when Wayne Henderson left the group. "Those Southern Knights" was Henderson's last and even so, it's not one of the Crusaders more memorable ones and it's where I stopped listening to them. "Free As The Wind" was their first without him. The first time I heard it I immediately knew something was missing from their sound and it was Henderson. Their sound and approach changed and they ceased to be the group that distinguished themselves from all others. Another big sign of their decline was when they started adding vocalists. Maybe I stand alone because I know a lot of people really dig "Street Life" which is totally beyond me. I just loathe it. I guess it's one of those "to each his own" kind of things.

Edited August 20, 2006 by mikelz777

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I've got a few of those Blue Thumbs - "Scratch" is my favourite. "Images" is about as zero an album as you could hope never to find, in my view. I like some of their later stuff, too. "Rhapsody & blues" and "Street life" are great favourites.

So too is Randy Crawford's "Now we may begin" which was produced and accompanied by the band (plus a few others), and all but one of the songs written by Joe Sample.

MG

"Scratch" is one of my favorites as well. I'd agree that "Images" is definitely one to avoid.

Way, way back when when I still had/played LPs I owned both "Rhapsody and Blues" as well as "Street Life". I remember nothing about "Rhapsody and Blues" which basically speaks for itself. "Street Life" makes my skin crawl and represents the ultimate in sell out in my opinion. As far as I'm concerned, the Crusaders ceased to be the Crusaders when Wayne Henderson left the group.

Another big sign of their decline was when they started adding vocalists. Maybe I stand alone because I know a lot of people really dig "Street Life" which is totally beyond me. I just loathe it. I guess it's one of those "to each his own" kind of things.

You're right about the changing sound after Wayne left. It changed even more after Stix left.

You're also right about to each his own. I like commercial jazz albums quite a lot; at least partly because they're popular.

MG

[JSngry]

I rather enjoyed Street Life. I rather didn't enjoy too much of what came after.

[Jim R]

I think these are available and would be my favorites from the 70's. Really strong jazz/fusion/funk........in a GOOD way, though.

Southern Comfort

Chain Reaction

These were Larry Carlton's best years, too.

Another good one. Most of these seem to still be available.

What about...

Anybody ever seen that on CD?

[mikelz777]

Yes, I have a copy of "Unsung Heroes" on CD. I don't think it's one that's as readily available as some of the others so you may have to pay dearly for it.

[edit] I had to give this one a listen because I hadn't heard it in a while. This one has some cool bass-line grooves on it. The bass duties are shared by Wilton Felder and Max Bennett but I don't know who's playing on what. Other than the basic musician credits in english, everything else on the liner notes of my CD are in japanese. This one's got some nice stuff on it.

Edited August 23, 2006 by mikelz777

[MomsMobley]

hold on...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zgzy7NlIQM

when it all comes down...

gotta admit 'rural renewal' doesn't suck either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tN6cGHHjr2E

I rather enjoyed Street Life. I rather didn't enjoy too much of what came after.

[mikelz777]

I give them both a "meh" but your milage may vary. Here's a review I once wrote for "Rural Renewal". I've since sold the disc.

I wanted to love this CD. I'm a huge Crusaders fan with 20 of their CDs as my witness. [it's now actually 22 physical discs which represent even more actual releases. I think I own everything that's been released on CD up until "Those Southern Knights".] I had high hopes for this CD, but was left wanting.

In the booklet notes, Joe Sample talks about "group renewal", "looking back to beginnings", a "reunion long in coming" and missing "playing essential Crusaders music". Sample's comments and the booklet's history of the group shockingly make absolutely no mention of trombonist Wayne Henderson who was in the various incarnations of the Crusaders from the very beginning!! Where's Wayne? If this CD is professing "A Healing Coming On" , whatever wounds or circumstances that allowed his absence should have been healed and dealt with first to result in a REAL reunion. It should be noted that any Crusaders album recorded after Wayne Henderson's departure pale in comparison to those where he was still a part of the group.

I was also looking for that signature Crusaders sound where the saxophone and trombone leads were out in front driving the music. This recording seems to push them into the background for the most part relegating them to bit players or supporting instruments basically stripping the group of the sound which made them stand out among other groups in the first place.

I can't and won't say that this music is unenjoyable, but for the Crusaders, it seems to be lacking. I can't quite put my finger on it, but the music just seems to plod along and not really go anywhere. It seems to lack urgency, texture, layers, interaction and playing off one another. It seems too safe and "sterile" lacking vitality of the past and seems kind of resigned or flat. I don't think it really qualifies as "essential" Crusaders music as Joe Sample would like to portray it.

Is the music bad? No. Is the musicianship bad? No. But when I want to listen to the Crusaders, there are 19 other Crusader CDs in my collection I will reach for first. Those who seem to really enjoy this CD should check out their recordings from the mid-1970s going back to the Jazz Crusader days to see what the Crusaders are really about.

Edited February 7, 2012 by mikelz777

[JamesJazz]

FWIW, there was a Detroit band - the Bohanon-Fields Quintet - that may have influenced the Crusaders.

BFQ was active in the early/mid sixties and pianist Kenny Cox gave the Crusaders three originals, (“Trance Dance” & “The Latin Bit” were issued).

Bohanon and Fields made overtures to Limelight Records about the possibility of a recording contract. Limelight liked the idea but wanted a sound closer to the Jazz Crusaders, then selling many discs for Pacific Jazz Records.

Ironically, the Crusaders recorded three of Cox’s compositions turned up at Bohanon-Fields rehearsals and incorporated some of what they heard into their own sound.

I haven't dug into this too much, don't know if the Crusaders were active in Detroit at that time. Would any of our members care to comment on Kenny's assertion?

[JSngry]

So, the claim is that an already-exisiting band came to Detroit and borrowed a sound from a group that couldn't seal the deal on a recording contract because they didn't sound enough like the band that allegedly borrowed their sound?

Sure, why not?

I wouldn't be surprised that the story of coming to a rehearsal, getting some tunes, and borrowing what they heard in the rehearsal to better serve the tunes they were given (at that rehearsal?), but hell, that seems like the right thing to do. You hear something that works for you, use it!

But keep in mind that The Freedom Sound was released in 1961 and that the band had been together in some form or fashion since the 1950s. so if we're talking a "they stole our sound" story, I don't think do. If we're talking a "this already successful band came to town and got some stuff from us" story, then, sure, could be, and why not?