Tell me why I should get the Buddy Rich set?

[JSngry]

Perfectly acceptable afaic!

What I kind of "objected" to was the notion put forth by some that Buddy Rich wasn't an "major" jazz drummer. In my world he's not, but in some parallel jazz worlds he is. And in the technical world of drummers, he's accorded been some pretty heavy respect by some/many of the people who are - Max, Philly, Elvin, etc. they all give props to his skills. Which is not to say that they bowed down to him as "better" than them or anything like that, just that they respected his accomplishments playing the same instrument.

What we're talking about here is, I think, "shop talk" amongst musicians, which is always going to be a different beast than "music talk". The issues of taste and musicality, as Chuck noted, are major sticking points with me and many others when it comes to Buddy Rich. And I've heard many drummers give Buddy the "so what?" treatment when it comes to those things, drummers who will at the same time acknowledge a sense of awe at his technique (which encompasses more than just "speed", btw). It's not an "either/or" thing, ya' know? I really, really don't care for Buddy Rich's drumming as a rule. Go out of my way to avoid it, actually (except for when I'm in the mood for that kind of thing (in which case I like to get it over with as quickly as possible...). But damned if I'm going to say that he wasn't much of a drummer or some such. To me, that's just fundamentally wrong. If you're a musician and can't recognize virtuosity, then you're kinda fucked, afaic. Otoh, you're equally fucked if you get so blinded by it that you lose the powers of discernment and think that that's all there is to it. A musician has a personal duty to balance that perspective, and from both ends. Everybody else is duty-free, though!

Now as far as Rich & Mosaic are concerned, back in the early days of Mosaic, when they were eagerly soliciting customer suggestions, I sent in a long list which included two "sure fire money makers", as I put it. One wass the Complete Thad & Mel Solid State, the other was the Complete Buddy Rich Pacific Jazz. Cuscuna's response was that the Thad/Mel thing was a good idea already under considration, but that the Rich stuff had a big enough audience to merit individual general releases, which is what happened (and they've all stayed in print).

So, you look at the sidemen on these Verve small-group dates (a not unimpressive list...), and factor in the genuine "beyond the norm" appeal that Buddy Rich has in the overall jazz world, and I think that you got a set that's good business for Mosaic (do not underestimate the number of Buddy Rich fanatics, believe me!), and one that has solid "mainstream" jazz appeal for people who aren't as bugged by Rich's drumming as we are. In fact, I'd not be surprised if this one goes pretty quickly, which is money in the pocket for the company, right?

[tranemonk]

so JS... should I assume that you will NOT buy the set?

[JSngry]

Highly unlikely.

[Brad]

I wasn't viewing that as unacceptable at all.  I do feel that Brad's statement that Rich was not significant or important as a jazz figure or even a good player and that it was odd that Mosaic would dedicate a set to him was just. . . wrong.  Seems like he was saying that Mosaic shouldn't issue sets by anyone HE didn't like.  I'll quit harping on that.

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Lon, I'm a bit surprised by that. We've known each other a long time and you're one of my original mentors in the jazz world and one who I have undying respect for. There are plenty of Mosaics that I don't have that I are probably good Mosaics whether I like them or not. Of course, I prefer the hard bops but I love the swing Mosaics that I have such as the Basie Roulettes and I hope to get for my birthday or Christmas, the Eldridge or the new Basie. I would agree with Jim that this one will do well as Mosaic must target a large group of people such as people who like the Four Freshmen. It would be nice to even see some more Blues Mosaics. So I don't think it's an issue of whether I like it or not. Mosaic does what it thinks is right and more often than not (and damn near all the time) they're right on the money.

[jazzbo]

Okay, so why did you say this was an odd choice for Mosaic? You trashed Rich and implied this should not be a Mosaic, read what you wrote.

I'm not discussing this any longer. . . .I've said enough on this subject. I'm inclined to buy this after it has been out a while if my finances improve.

'Nuff said.

[Brad]

I still don't think this is a good choice but they don't need me to decide for them what they think will do well. I stay by my comments on Rich. It seems around here that if you sling hash at a person's diety, that people all get in a tizzy and out of whack. If you read what I wrote and subsequent posts, I said the guy's technically good, but as an artist I don't think he is and that there are better drummers and drummers I prefer more. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it. This is supposed to be fun but you seem to be all upset about it. I don't see others getting all bent out of shape about it. We all express our opinions and hopefully we all respect it and take it fwiw, opinions.

Disappointing response to say the least.

Edited August 6, 2005 by Brad

[jazzbo]

I guess I just misunderstood your initial posts. They disappointed me too. You're allowed your opinion, I'm allowed mine; I wasn't disputing this. I guess I do strongly disagree with your assessment that he is not a significant jazz artist. That I think is incorrect. And I guess I read too much value into your statement about "odd choice." (And I strongly feel it is just the kind of choice we're going to see in the future from Mosaic, and not odd at all).

I'll shut up about it. My apologies if I seemed to be belittling your opinion, I did not mean to be.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I'm still waiting for anyone here to step up and proclaim Buddy Rich as a "deity" or even as one's favorite drummer. The *defenders* of Buddy's reputation seem to be those who *aren't* Rich-fanatics.

Mike

[jazzbo]

That's an interesting observation. I think that RDK is correct when he says that the man on the street is likely to be more familiar with Rich than other drummers we prefer, and I think that perhaps the jazz fans that would be fanatics for Rich are NOT posting on jazz bulletin boards with frequency or in numbers. . . .

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Yeah, they're in the basement practicing their double-bass rolls. Either there or at Sam Ash.

Mike

[Brad]

Lon,

My apologies too if we all seem to have gotten excited. Group hug

[JSngry]

Well now, if we want to consider Rich's importance in the overall (ie - more than just "artistic") picture of jazz, then he looms rather large, I'd say. Those PJ big band albums of his didn't generate the whole "big band resurgance" that began in the mid-1960s, but they certainly brought the whole thing into focus for the general public. The old folks dug'em, and a lot of the kids did too. Regardless of how one views those albums, they created a bit of a stir upon initial release. Buddy Rich was a name with marquis value, and the fact that he was now leading a tight big band with "contemporary" (meaning non-Swing Era and/or "rock"-inluenced) charts made a certain segment of the public sit up and take notice. Suddenly, "the big bands were coming back", and not in the form of ghost bands.

Gerald Wilson, Jones/Lewis, Oliver Nelson, Don Ellis, and many others benefitted from this increased visibility of the form (or more accurately, from the public perception that the form was no longer "antiquated"). You could also say that Herman took a chapter from Rich's book in his adoption of more "contemporary" material, which led to his own "renaissance". Same for Kenton - he had pretty much been making easy-listening and other types of "frivolous" sides for Capitol since the mid-1960s. The only "name" bands that were continuing unencumbered were Basie, Ellington, and some of the dance bands.

Some bands, like Gerald Wilson's & the Jones/Lewis group, were already in place before Rich's. But they didn't "break out" the way Buddy's did, and for one obvious reason - Buddy Rich was already a genuine legend, going back to the Swing Era. Plus, he was a genuine "character", somebody whose hyper, smartass, put-up-or-shut-up, show-me-something-I've-never-seen-before attitude was a direct reflection of his musical skills/tastes. People like that inevitable draw a crowd, especially when they can back it up. And now, here he was leading a totally "modern" band. You can bet that a lot of people noticed, and whenever a lot of people notice any kind of jazz, you can bet that the other types will be coming along trying to find a way to get in on the action. And often enough, they have a little bit of success.

It's too much of a stretch to say that Buddy Rich's big band triggered the fusion movement, or any other movement. WAY too much of a stretch. As noted earlier, he didn't even trigger the big-band resurgance, although he certainly played a key role in bumping it up several notches. But its not too big of a stretch to say that his renewed "high profile" presence on the scene in those years attracted a diverse audience that was predisposed to enjoying non-mainstream Top 40 material, and that different elements of that audience found their way to different developements in the music as time went by. In other words, he brought people to the music at a time when there was a real risk of trees falling in the forest with nobody around to hear them. If the music he used to bring them is not to all of our liking, so be it.

Important to the music? Not particularly, not for me. But important to "the music"? Yeah, very.

[jazzbo]

We need a smiley for that Brad!

Jim, yes, I agree with your assessment.

I also have to say that as I listen more and more to sessions that he appeared as a sideman on I think he really excelled on some of these with swing, interactive comping, etc. No slouch! And some of the dates that will be on the Mosaic are good ones.

Edited August 6, 2005 by jazzbo

[tranemonk]

I concur.... As the thread starter... Phew!!!!!

Why do I feel like if I buy this set...???? One of three things will happen...

Either

1) I will LOVE it, sell my CD collection and decide I want to have a mid-life crisis and come back as the long-lost love child of Buddy Rich.... OR

2) I will HATE it, and at the 1st drum solo...start ten organissmo rants about how this set is WORSE than the Dinah Washington train wreck and HOW DARE YOU PEOPLE NOT WARN ME!! OR

3) It will have it's moments (good and bad) and will be in the middle of pack re: My Mosiac sets....

Why do I feel like I need a drink after this thread????

Lon,

My apologies too if we all seem to have gotten excited.  Group hug

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[7/4]

Interesting thread. Rich is someone I never think about, but I do have to admit he had amazing chops.

[Tony Pusey]

Ummm, so should I buy this set? (Only Kidding!)

[vibes]

I concur.... As the thread starter... Phew!!!!!        

Why do I feel like if I buy this set...???? One of three things will happen...

Either

1) I will LOVE it, sell my CD collection and decide I want to have a mid-life crisis and come back as the long-lost love child of Buddy Rich.... OR

2) I will HATE it, and at the 1st drum solo...start ten organissmo rants about how this set is WORSE than the Dinah Washington train wreck and HOW DARE YOU PEOPLE NOT WARN ME!!        OR

3) It will have it's moments (good and bad) and will be in the middle of pack re: My Mosiac sets....

Why do I feel like I need a drink after this thread????

Lon,

My apologies too if we all seem to have gotten excited.  Group hug

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Seriously, just try the Verve LPRs. After that, who cares what anyone else thinks? Make up your own mind. If you like the LPRs, surely you will like more of the music in the Mosaic. If you don't like 'em, you've only wasted $20-25.

When it comes to your taste, no one but you has golden ears. If you don't like the set, you've got no one to blame but yourself. Believe it or not, no one on this board is forcing anyone else to buy Mosaic sets.

[RDK]

That's an interesting observation.  I think that RDK is correct when he says that the man on the street is likely to be more familiar with Rich than other drummers we prefer, and I think that perhaps the jazz fans that would be fanatics for Rich are NOT posting on jazz bulletin boards with frequency or in numbers. . . .

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When I was growing up in the early 70s - long before I got "into" jazz - there were really only a couple of jazz musicians whose names I heard bandied about on a regular basis. Once you got past the nostalgic big band leaders - Glen Miller, Dorsey, etc. - there was Chuck Mangione, who was something of a legend in my hometown of Rochester, and Buddy Rich, who everyone (and I mean "guy on the street" rather than jazz afficianado, of whom I knew none) considered a drumming legend. Now I know this is somewhat akin to some ordinary guy thinking that Kenny G is a swell jazz musician, but still... Rich was, to me, a jazz legend before I ever really knew what a jazz legend was.

I have no doubt that this set will sell...

[JSngry]

I also have to say that as I listen more and more to sessions that he appeared as a sideman on I think he really excelled on some of these with swing, interactive comping, etc.  No slouch! 

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I find him to be as welcome on the Prez/Cole trio session as I find him to be godawful on the Bird/Diz/Monk session. The 70s session w/Hamp is another good'un.

There are very, very few truly one-dimensional artists in jazz, and Rich is no exception.

[Quincy]

When I was growing up in the early 70s - long before I got "into" jazz - there were really only a couple of jazz musicians whose names I heard bandied about on a regular basis.  Once you got past the nostalgic big band leaders - Glen Miller, Dorsey, etc. - there was Chuck Mangione, who was something of a legend in my hometown of Rochester, and Buddy Rich, who everyone (and I mean "guy on the street" rather than jazz afficianado, of whom I knew none) considered a drumming legend.

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Yup. When I was growing up in the '70s in a small town in the Midwest much of my musical exposure was through my best friend & his brother who was 4 years older.

These 2 were into Led Zeppelin, Ted Nugent, Montrose, and other bands far far away from jazz. My best friend had a drum kit in the basement and liked to pound them. One day a new name came up in the ongoing debate of the world's greatest drummer, which presumably had been established as 1) John Bonham and 2) Neil Peart (The Who's music was too refined for Keith Moon to be considered.) BUDDY RICH.

"Hey man, did you see this guy Buddy Rich on Johnny Carson last night? He's like this old jazz dude, but man oh man, he is something else..."

Or something to that effect. It did nothing to shift his tastes towards jazz, but appearances on Johnny Carson made a hell of an impressiion.

[StormP]

Interesting thread. Rich is someone I never think about, but I do have to admit he had amazing chops. 

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I didn't know Rich ate pork chops!

[Chuck Nessa]

Kinda' like saying he can bench press 2000 lbs. - so friggin' what.

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So friggin' what indeed.

Except that when a list of The Strongest Men In The History Of The World is compiled, are you going to leave a cat off who can bench press 2000 lbs? I don't think so. Asteriskacise him as Most Annoying Man On The List, sure. But he makes the list.

←

He can be on the list. Just don't ask me for $XXX to read his name on the damn list.

[JSngry]

Wouldn't dream of it.

[marcello]

The 70s session w/Hamp is another good'un.

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Yes Jim, and that one has my late friend Barry Kiener playing piano.

[tranemonk]

as the thread starter.... (and with some wise advice)... I went ahead and bought the Buddy and Sweets CD to get a sense if I would like the upcoming Mosaic set.... (since it's very likely that session will be included in the Mosaic set). (Only cost me $8 on overstock.com. )

After listening to that CD, I have to say I can understand all the fury on this thread... Seems like you either love Buddy Rich, hate him or at the very least respect his contributions to the music....

When I frst put it on... and heard the 1st cut... basically a 4 minute drum solo... I was like... OKAY... that's at least one Mosaic I can cross off my "WANT" list... (since I wasn't into it....) but...... as the record goes on.... It's REALLY good!!. Great playing by Sweets... Barney Kessel... enjoyable as usual but a bit understated.... and Rich's remaining work on the record, I thoroughly enjoyed... Very nice brush work and his solos seemed to "make sense" to my ears....

So I left this CD... wanting to hear more... So I think I'm definitely in the "gonna buy it" category... Thanks for ALL the input..... And as with all of this music... it's ultimately what our own ears tell us.. (as to whether we like someone's music or not)....and my ears want to hear more....

Oh and one other point... the question was bought up earlier as to whether or not the Rich was an "odd choice" for a Mosaic set.... Based on what I heard (and the little I know) about him and his role, I would have to say it is very consistent with the Mosaic approach and focus.... Someone who had an instrumental role in the music and focusing on one period or aspect of thier career....

Overall, this is a set I'm looking forward to..... Thanks for the lively debate....

Finally... as a complete layman (read - non-musician...) does his drumming sound the tiniest bit like Art Blakely????

Guess I know what my wife's birthday present to me is....

Edited August 17, 2005 by tranemonk