Playing Monk Tunes

[Dan Gould]

OK, I'm back in this forum to see if a non-musician can spark some interesting discussion/memories.

As I listened to the newly found Monk/Coltrane recording, I remembered that Coltrane supposedly said that getting lost in a Monk composition was like 'falling down an elevator shaft', which led me to wonder:

Has this ever happened to you?

How do you approach Monk tunes?

Which are your favorite Monk tunes to blow on?

[Rosco]

Let's just say my respect for Charlie Rouse grows daily...

[JSngry]

Oh yeah, I've fallen. And landed hard. Ouch,

Starting with the melody is the best way to learn the innards of the tune, mopreso thna with most things. Staying with the melody can get you into some into some very interesting places, since those pieces aren't just "songs". They're self-sufficient, self-sustaing organisms.

My respect for Steve Lacy grows daily! There was a cat who stuck with Monk's melodies no matter where it led him. To hear his later readings of Monk tunes is like "Fantastic Voyage" taken to a whole 'nother level. He's not "out", he's in - waaay in.

It's a cliche, and it's trite, but it's nevertheless true - Monk is DEEP.

(and no D'Imperio jikes, please... )

[Robert J]

Ballad: Ruby my Dear

Up: Bemsha Swing, Well you Needn't

I think that Monk melodies are tricky to play on the piano (trickier than they seem at first) because they require your hands to operate differently than you are used to (ie use unique fingerings in the right hand; left hand rhythm shifts). His runs are also challenging. I would never copy him of course. The tunes are certainly not learned from the Real Book! I found the Stuart Isacoff transcriptions helpful as well as careful listening. I still feel like a novice when it comes to Monk - and that says lots about the way he composes.

I'd love to play Nutty or Trinkle Tinkle someday.

[Rosco]

Favourites to play...

Ruby My Dear, Well You Needn't, In Walked Bud, Monk's Mood, Bemsha Swing, Epistrophy, I Mean You, Straight No Chaser, Rhythm-a-Ning, Evidence and Round Midnight (well, you have to take that one on eventually, right?)

Oh, and does Blue Monk count?

Interesting to hear a piano player's perspective on it. I think a lot of horn players have problems dealing with Monk because his compositions (which are inseperable from his playing) are so pianistic. Monk seems to deal with the physicalities of the instrument more than just about anyone (except Cecil Taylor and his followers). There's been more than one occasion where a problem understanding Monk's use of harmony has been solved once played at a keyboard. Traditional harmonic movement goes largely out the window and yet his progressions have a resolute musical logic and masterful use of tension and release that you really have to tap into.

Anyone hoping to play licks or run chord/ scales is going to come unstuck pretty quickly. Monk forces you to think instead of playing on auto-pilot.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

I spent half a year studying nothing but Monk tunes with Kenny Barron (who knows a thing or two about Monk). What I found to be the biggest challenge were the tunes that don't seem to do anything - like "Green Chimneys" and to a lesser degree, "Well, You Needn't". They just vacillate between two chords. Even the melody of "Green Chimneys" doesn't give you much to go on. Playing the head is a breeze, but when your solo starts, everything sounds wrong.

For a pianist, seeing Monk play the tunes is revelatory - even if it is not something to copy. His fingering is just absurd. Watch "Rhythm-a-ning" on the Straight No Chaser movie. No one plays it like that. Only Thelonious.

Mike

[mikeweil]

As percussionist, I approach them by playing along the melody and the structure. I wouldn't approach them on the basis of chord changes if I played a different instrument - I once saw a facsimile of a Monk sheet, and there were no chord symbols at all. I'd say the harmony was evident to him, and the melody and form were more important. Noodling over changes won't work with his music.

I love 'em all, but as far as ballads are concerned I prefer the less often played titles.

[AllenLowe]

I played in a tribute concert to Monk about 20 years ago, and instead of Monk tunes - which I don't feel I do really well - I played standards that I;d heard him perform and that influenced me in the listening: Just You Just Me, You Are too Beautiful, Tea For Two (all on one Riverside, as I recall) - this was much more manageable for me, in trying to channel the feeling I got from listening to him -

[Soul Stream]

The problem with Monk tunes is that his playing and compositions are like a two-headed dragon. They are one and the same. To hear a Monk tune without Monk playing it just sounds WRONG! I mean I love hear people do it just to see the result, even Miles...just never felt right to me as a listener. And as far as playing...even the simplist Monk tunes make me feel extremely self-consiously unsoulful when I play them (Monk would laugh if he heard this, is always in the back of my head when soloing). Just my 2 cents. Barry Harris and Tommy Flanagan are two exceptions that do come to my mind however.

[Robert J]

The problem with Monk tunes is that his playing and compositions are like a two-headed dragon.  They are one and the same.  To hear a Monk tune without Monk playing it just sounds WRONG!  I mean I love hear people do it just to see the result, even Miles...just never felt right to me as a listener.  And as far as playing...even the simplist Monk tunes make me feel extremely self-consiously unsoulful when I play them (Monk would laugh if he heard this, is always in the back of my head when soloing).   Just my 2 cents.  Barry Harris and Tommy Flanagan are two exceptions that do come to my mind however.

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SS - that's a good point. I've thought about that a lot. I'd never do real justice to a Monk tune because I am so familiar with the recordings. And to try to ape him would be terrible (though many do). It would be like writing in the style of Milton or Dante.

Some can do it well. I still feel the Chick Corea recording on ECM does justice. As does Fred Hersch. Barry Harris and Tommy Flanagan do in a different way. Though Barry is more Bud and Tad Dameron (I'm going to see him next week ).

Even the Theolnius Monk competitions were suspect in my mind. Did they prize imitators only? Interpretors?

What Mike said about the film "Straight no Chaser" is accurate. The fingerings are unique to Monk - and that's how his sound happens.

The upshot is: I feel more self-conscious playing Monk than I do Duke.

[Alexander Hawkins]

I spent half a year studying nothing but Monk tunes with Kenny Barron (who knows a thing or two about Monk). What I found to be the biggest challenge were the tunes that don't seem to do anything - like "Green Chimneys" and to a lesser degree, "Well, You Needn't". They just vacillate between two chords. Even the melody of "Green Chimneys" doesn't give you much to go on. Playing the head is a breeze, but when your solo starts, everything sounds wrong.

For a pianist, seeing Monk play the tunes is revelatory - even if it is not something to copy. His fingering is just absurd. Watch "Rhythm-a-ning" on the Straight No Chaser movie. No one plays it like that. Only Thelonious.

Mike

Bright Mississippi is another one that makes your point, I think!

I agree about watching Monk. He makes you think about phrasing and space (as piano players, I guess we don't have to breathe as such, so there's no

necessary incentive to 'break in play').

He also makes you think about touch. It's a real lesson in getting a 'sound' out of the piano, where so many 'trained' players come out with a non-descript, mushy touch.

I love playing over many Monk tunes, although I don't feel ready to play any but a very few on gigs just yet. I definitely agree with Jim's point about playing over the melody. I also think Monk is one of those composers where I hear 'wrong' notes into improvisations - e.g. I often feel more than happy not hewing too closely to chord symbols.

Some tunes I especially like to play at the moment:

Shuffle Boil, Oska T.

One that I'd love to play better than I do is Evidence.

Interesting comments about horn players v. pianists playing Monk. On the whole, I prefer to hear horn players do it - but obviously there are notable exceptions!

[Rosco]

I spent half a year studying nothing but Monk tunes with Kenny Barron (who knows a thing or two about Monk). What I found to be the biggest challenge were the tunes that don't seem to do anything - like "Green Chimneys" and to a lesser degree, "Well, You Needn't". They just vacillate between two chords. Even the melody of "Green Chimneys" doesn't give you much to go on. Playing the head is a breeze, but when your solo starts, everything sounds wrong.

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That's exactly how I've felt on more than one occasion. I played a jam a little while ago where someone called 'Friday the 13th' which should be the easiest thing in the world (it looks ridiculously simple on paper) but nothing I did seemed to be working. That was an elevator shaft moment and I was about 20 storeys up.

These are tunes that have their own 'logic' that has nothing to do with how harmony 'should' work. Forget everythiing you think you know, 'cos it ain't gonna help!

It's been a while since I tried playing it but 'Bye-Ya' was another one where I just couldn't make anything work.

[Dan Gould]

Interesting replies; glad this has sparked some discussion

[Alexander Hawkins]

I spent half a year studying nothing but Monk tunes with Kenny Barron (who knows a thing or two about Monk). What I found to be the biggest challenge were the tunes that don't seem to do anything - like "Green Chimneys" and to a lesser degree, "Well, You Needn't". They just vacillate between two chords. Even the melody of "Green Chimneys" doesn't give you much to go on. Playing the head is a breeze, but when your solo starts, everything sounds wrong.

←

That's exactly how I've felt on more than one occasion. I played a jam a little while ago where someone called 'Friday the 13th' which should be the easiest thing in the world (it looks ridiculously simple on paper) but nothing I did seemed to be working. That was an elevator shaft moment and I was about 20 storeys up.

These are tunes that have their own 'logic' that has nothing to do with how harmony 'should' work. Forget everythiing you think you know, 'cos it ain't gonna help!

It's been a while since I tried playing it but 'Bye-Ya' was another one where I just couldn't make anything work.

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What I love about these tunes is that they really hang out to dry the guys who just run the chords and scales. Payback for all those times they roast you up on the stand over Giant Steps etc.

[MartyJazz]

One that I'd love to play better than I do is Evidence.

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Non-musician here enjoying this thread. Just wanted to state that there is a video of Monk in Japan in '63 wherein the first tune played is "Evidence". It just swings tremendously and watching Monk solo on it epitomizes, I think, his unique, totally inimitable approach to the piano. Added enjoyment visually is watching Monk "dance" and carry on while others take their solos.

[AllenLowe]

Actually, Barry Harris can do Monk so well it's scary - Barry lived with Monk at Nica's house for the last years of Monk's life, and told me how strange and catatonic Monk had become - the night after Monk died, Barry played at the Angry Squire, a club in NYC, and did nothing but Monk tunes, nailing the voicings, the touch, the lines, everything - wow!

[Soul Stream]

Monk was so far ahead of his time. To me, he was the prophet of modern day hip hop rhythms. A lot of his eccentric timing is now heard everyday on the radio.

Just a thought.

[mikeweil]

You pointed out something here, SS - the rhythm! Monk's rhythmic phrasing is very peculiar - and very precise! That's also an important part of his very personal way of approaching standards. Trying to play the tunes exactly as he phrased them rhythmically helps a lot, is my experience. There are no random patterns in his rhythms.

Edited August 17, 2005 by mikeweil

[Soul Stream]

Yes, that jerky, spastic, precise, non-european rhythm is exactly what makes Monk's music so, so, so hard to deal with. Playing jazz in no way helps you to play Monk...

[AllenLowe]

no less an authority thanTeddy Wilson told the pianist Dick Katz, when he was studying with Wilson back in the 1940s, to listen to Monk because he was "a rhythm master" -

Edited August 18, 2005 by AllenLowe

[Kalo]

Monk's rhythms are the most inimitable thing about him.

When I first started listening to the man, in high school, it was the rhythms that really turned my head around. (Though, of course, everything about Monk as a composer/performer was/is powerfully integral: melody, rhythm, phrasing, etc.)

Monk is the master of rhythmic suspense. He sub-divides the rhythm far beyond the ken of notation of any kind.

I'm an untrained musician (singer, songwriter, and rhythm guitarist for several unsung "popadelic funk'n'roll" bands) and Monk was a key influence on my phrasing and inflection of silences, much to the chagrin several band-mates.

I've essayed a few Monk compositions on my lonesome, and I can't say I've ever fallen down the shaft -- perhaps because my approach is structural and melodic, rather than chord-based.

[Kalo]

By the way, this is a REALLY interesting thread.

[Alexander Hawkins]

I think the more you look at a Monk tune, you realise how wonderfully engineered they are. Sure, the changes are usually a refreshing change from the I-VI-II-V-I standard fare etc., but the way he uses melodic shapes so subtly...

I wasn't necessarily a fan of Ken Burns' series, and Wynton's commentary therein much less , but one interesting sequence was Wynton doing an (albeit very simple) anatomy of 'Epistrophy', pointing out the various inversions/symmetries etc. of the melody.

[edited for spelling]

Edited August 19, 2005 by Red

[Soul Stream]

One other thing about rhythms...no other group ever swings as hard as Monk's classic quartet. I mean those guys got Louisville Sluggers.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Which exactly was Monk's "classic quartet"? - I got Monk, I got Rouse.

Mike