what the f*ck happened to popular black music?

[AllenLowe]

I do tend to think that people who complain about how bad a particular category of music is just aren't finding the good stuff - it's like listening to a smooth jazz station and than complaining that there's no more good jazz - you just have to know where to look for it, and it's not always easy to find, especially if you're an outsider to the kind of people who make that music -

Edited April 8, 2006 by AllenLowe

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

While I was out, I decided that KD Jr is really taking a very parochial view of black music. If he were to look into the different popular musics of Africa, he'd find everything he thinks is lacking in America; right up in his face. America has no God-given right to be the cutting edge of black music, simply because it was for eighty years or so.

Music reflects culture. If you don't like the music, do something about the culture - change society.

MG

[Epithet]

I do tend to think that people who complain about how bad a particular category of music is just aren't finding the good stuff - it's like listening to a smooth jazz station and than complaining that there's no more good jazz - you just have to know where to look for it, and it's not always easy to find, especially if you're an outsider to the kind of people who make that music -

Doesn't that mean there's good smooth jazz?

Edited April 8, 2006 by Epithet

[rostasi]

Mike Ladd too!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I do tend to think that people who complain about how bad a particular category of music is just aren't finding the good stuff - it's like listening to a smooth jazz station and than complaining that there's no more good jazz - you just have to know where to look for it, and it's not always easy to find, especially if you're an outsider to the kind of people who make that music -

Doesn't that mean there's good smooth jazz?

There are some Smooth Jazz albums that fit rather better into the tradition of Soul Jazz than others. Try Urban Knights for that - of course, Ramsey Lewis does make a dfference. In general, Smooth Jazz suffers from exactly the same defects as Smooth Soul - some talented musicians and singers, but not much soul, not much conviction, no real story to tell. They probably wouldn't be ALLOWED by their labels to tell their story anyway.

MG

[Epithet]

I do tend to think that people who complain about how bad a particular category of music is just aren't finding the good stuff - it's like listening to a smooth jazz station and than complaining that there's no more good jazz - you just have to know where to look for it, and it's not always easy to find, especially if you're an outsider to the kind of people who make that music -

Doesn't that mean there's good smooth jazz?

There are some Smooth Jazz albums that fit rather better into the tradition of Soul Jazz than others. Try Urban Knights for that - of course, Ramsey Lewis does make a dfference. In general, Smooth Jazz suffers from exactly the same defects as Smooth Soul - some talented musicians and singers, but not much soul, not much conviction, no real story to tell. They probably wouldn't be ALLOWED by their labels to tell their story anyway.

MG

Well, it was a rhetorical question intended to show that saying that particular categories of music have good stuff just hides the aesthetic judgement in the choice of category. (With reference to AllenLowe's example: if he doesn't think any smooth jazz is good the argument now hinges on the placing of smooth jazz in the jazz category.)

[rostasi]

There are some Smooth Jazz albums that fit rather better into the tradition of Soul Jazz than others. Try Urban Knights for that - of course, Ramsey Lewis does make a dfference. In general, Smooth Jazz suffers from exactly the same defects as Smooth Soul - some talented musicians and singers, but not much soul, not much conviction, no real story to tell. They probably wouldn't be ALLOWED by their labels to tell their story anyway.

Plus, these labels are so unfixed. I had a guy write me last night and tell me how much he liked the "smooth jazz" that I was playing and that the guitar was really lovely - I was playing Wes.

[Epithet]

There are some Smooth Jazz albums that fit rather better into the tradition of Soul Jazz than others. Try Urban Knights for that - of course, Ramsey Lewis does make a dfference. In general, Smooth Jazz suffers from exactly the same defects as Smooth Soul - some talented musicians and singers, but not much soul, not much conviction, no real story to tell. They probably wouldn't be ALLOWED by their labels to tell their story anyway.

Plus, these labels are so unfixed. I had a guy write me last night and tell me how much he liked the "smooth jazz" that I was playing and that the guitar was really lovely - I was playing Wes.

Must've been Bumpin'.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

There are some Smooth Jazz albums that fit rather better into the tradition of Soul Jazz than others. Try Urban Knights for that - of course, Ramsey Lewis does make a dfference. In general, Smooth Jazz suffers from exactly the same defects as Smooth Soul - some talented musicians and singers, but not much soul, not much conviction, no real story to tell. They probably wouldn't be ALLOWED by their labels to tell their story anyway.

Plus, these labels are so unfixed. I had a guy write me last night and tell me how much he liked the "smooth jazz" that I was playing and that the guitar was really lovely - I was playing Wes.

Wes was THE pioneer of Smooth Jazz; 10 years before it happened.

MG

[montg]

Last, but not least, it's time to address the musical quality of this bullshit, or more accurately, the lack of it. Way back when, when I first started studying music I was told that music had to consist of three elements: melody, harmony and rhythm. Rap music (an oxymoron similar to “military intelligence “or “jumbo shrimpâ€) has basically discarded the first two elements and is left with nothing but rhythm.

This is where he lost me.

Guy

Actually, this is the part that makes the most sense to me. I'm not saying melody and harmony are absent from rap (I'm not familiar enough with the genre to catch the nuances, if they're there)--but, all I hear in rap is headache-inducing rhythm. Hard for me to find anything spiritual or transcendent & those are the qualities I'm looking for. OTOH I hear nothing but spirit when I hear Same Cooke. Or Marvin Gaye etc.

Of course, as Martin Williams once said, when people hear jazz, they ask "where's the melody?".

Edited April 8, 2006 by montg

[WD45]

I do tend to think that people who complain about how bad a particular category of music is just aren't finding the good stuff - it's like listening to a smooth jazz station and than complaining that there's no more good jazz - you just have to know where to look for it, and it's not always easy to find, especially if you're an outsider to the kind of people who make that music -

This is spot on.

Why is it that we hash this whole topic over every few months? We see the same shit every time. To expect another Marvin Gaye is like waiting for the next Bird. It ain't gonna happen. Culture evolves, as does the musical continuum.

Remember Lincoln Logs? Man they don't make toys like they used to...

[JSngry]

Why is it that we hash this whole topic over every few months?

Because things keep changing more and more and we're freaking out that they ain't never gonna be like they used to?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Why is it that we hash this whole topic over every few months?

Because things keep changing more and more and we're freaking out that they ain't never gonna be like they used to?

Why? I don't think you are. I know I'm not. Why do some people?

MG

[montg]

I do tend to think that people who complain about how bad a particular category of music is just aren't finding the good stuff - it's like listening to a smooth jazz station and than complaining that there's no more good jazz - you just have to know where to look for it, and it's not always easy to find, especially if you're an outsider to the kind of people who make that music -

This is spot on.

Why is it that we hash this whole topic over every few months? We see the same shit every time. To expect another Marvin Gaye is like waiting for the next Bird. It ain't gonna happen. Culture evolves, as does the musical continuum.

Remember Lincoln Logs? Man they don't make toys like they used to...

Culture evolves, but that doesn't mean it progresses. I'm not pining for the past, but I'm sure not gonna say that 21st century America, from a cultural standpoint, has progressed from where it was 30 years ago. I'm hoping for a way forward.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I do tend to think that people who complain about how bad a particular category of music is just aren't finding the good stuff - it's like listening to a smooth jazz station and than complaining that there's no more good jazz - you just have to know where to look for it, and it's not always easy to find, especially if you're an outsider to the kind of people who make that music -

This is spot on.

Why is it that we hash this whole topic over every few months? We see the same shit every time. To expect another Marvin Gaye is like waiting for the next Bird. It ain't gonna happen. Culture evolves, as does the musical continuum.

Remember Lincoln Logs? Man they don't make toys like they used to...

Culture evolves, but that doesn't mean it progresses. I'm not pining for the past, but I'm sure not gonna say that 21st century America, from a cultural standpoint, has progressed from where it was 30 years ago. I'm hoping for a way forward.

Cultures don't progress; they change. There's no way anyone can say that any culture is the result of more progress than any other culture.

MG

[Neal Pomea]

While I was out, I decided that KD Jr is really taking a very parochial view of black music. If he were to look into the different popular musics of Africa, he'd find everything he thinks is lacking in America; right up in his face. America has no God-given right to be the cutting edge of black music, simply because it was for eighty years or so.

MG

This is why I say I didn't understand the premise of Drew's article.

[Kreilly]

I do tend to think that people who complain about how bad a particular category of music is just aren't finding the good stuff - it's like listening to a smooth jazz station and than complaining that there's no more good jazz - you just have to know where to look for it, and it's not always easy to find, especially if you're an outsider to the kind of people who make that music -

This is spot on.

Why is it that we hash this whole topic over every few months? We see the same shit every time. To expect another Marvin Gaye is like waiting for the next Bird. It ain't gonna happen. Culture evolves, as does the musical continuum.

Remember Lincoln Logs? Man they don't make toys like they used to...

Culture evolves, but that doesn't mean it progresses. I'm not pining for the past, but I'm sure not gonna say that 21st century America, from a cultural standpoint, has progressed from where it was 30 years ago. I'm hoping for a way forward.

Cultures don't progress; they change. There's no way anyone can say that any culture is the result of more progress than any other culture.

MG

I could not agree more.

[AllenLowe]

I don't think I made my point clearly - I wasn't talking about smooth jazz, per se - I was only pointing out that if you complain about an entire form of music while only listening to one segment of it, you're being myopic and betraying an unwareness of the big picture - it's like people who complain about current-day rock - there's a guy on my local FM station who plays incredibly intersting indie-rock groups that I would never encounter outside of that show.So it's there for the finding, but part of the problem is that the mass media have become more and more conglomerated - on the other hand, things like the interenet (and this group) are great antidotes -

Edited April 8, 2006 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

I wonder what an article with the same title written in 1976 by Kenny Drew Sr. would have read like?

[Chuck Nessa]

Don't think he'd have noticed or cared enough to write about it. Used to get frequent letters and postcards from Kenny and he was all "peace, love, beauty and joy".

[Alexander]

There's always been good and bad in pop music, black or white. There's a lot of good black pop music out there now.

Erykah Badu to start with. Listening to "World wide underground" for the first time, I got the same feeling as the first time I liistened to Ornette Coleperson's "Free jazz" - hearing a music that was so blindingly creative, yet firmly entrenched in the culture it represented, and with an incredible groove to it.

Plenty of other neo-Soul singers around who are every bit as good as the soul singers of the '60s - Mary J Blige; Angie Stone; Alicia Keys (when she's on it); Belita Woods, who sings two great cuts on George Clinton's "How late do UF2BB4UR absent".

Wyclef Jean; Public Enemy; The Last Poets; KRS1; Gil Scott-Heron represent a political thread in Rap that can't be disregarded and lumped into an anti-social bag.

And there have always been plenty of songs about sex and violence. Try Wynonie "Mr Blues" Harris or Dinah Washington. Like many in the past, many of the modern ones include a strong dose of self parody - Redman's multiple versions of Johnny "Guitar" Watson's "Superman lover" are hilarious; as are many of Busta Rhymes' things.

I think black popular music is just as good now, and just as bad, and just as BAAAD, as it's ever been. I love it!

MG

To this I'd add Jill Scott and M'Chell N'dgecello, two freakin' WONDERFUL contemporary black singers. Before her talent ate her brain, I'd add Lauren Hill (she was amazing with the Fugees and her first solo disc is wonderful too). The Roots are, as I've said before, one of the best bands around, full-stop. They are every bit as musical as they are rhythmic. ?uestlove knows his shit. Common is great too. Then there's Cody ChestNUTT...Mos Def...Roy Hargrove's RH Factor...

Anyone who complains about contemporary black music/hip hop is basically not LISTENING to it...

Edited April 8, 2006 by Alexander

[JSngry]

Anyone who complains about contemporary black music/hip hop is basically not LISTENING to it...

Or, at the very least, only a part of it.

[Christiern]

I agree that we cannot simply blame it all on rap. Rap represented an interesting turn in pop music, and some of it is, IMO, very good. Sad to say, most of it is pure crap, and there is so much of this crap because we have decision-makers at the top who are, basically, business people. You have people like Clive Davis--to take this back to a pivotal period--who came to the music business by way of an expertise that had nothing to do with music. In my Columbia days, Clive was very good to me, he was fair and above board, but he did not know diddly about the music--he clapped on the wrong beat and based his musical opinions on the ears of others, etc. But he rose to power and artists saw in him someone who could pave the way for them, so he became a beloved executive. He, in turn, loved the attention he got from artists and, hence, from the press.

I mention Clive, because he is someone whose rise I personally observed--there are many Clives and many big corporations running this business. They often care little for the music, because it's all about that bottom line and the PR. Look at Wynton, he is a good sample of what happens when non-musical factors determine artistic judgement. I bring up Wynton, because here--again--is someone whose image I saw being molded by PR and furthered by people with twisted priorities. Wynton got a good start with Blakey and I, for one, saw him as a strong contender for future greatness--it didn't happen, because the Madison Avenue mindset took over. Instead of leading to a shining star on the jazz firmament (which, I think, could have happened), it brought us Dizzy Gillespie's Coca Cola™ club at a music complex that best can be described as a tourist trap.

If Wynton were the only drop of water in this soup, there would not be a problem. He, at least, has talent and there are times when it still surfaces, albeit briefly (let's put aside his personality--which, BTW, was also affected by the Columbia-generated makeover). The question posed by Kenny Drew, Jr. was: "What happened to black popular music?" Yes, the knee-jerk answer is "rap," but the proliferation of that style is only a symptom of a much deeper problem. I think most of us can agree that it American pop music has been seriously diluted (think of any recent Grammy telecast), but we should not blame the non-singers who painful vocal graffiti assaults our ears or the self-named composers who wouldn't recognize a melody if they could hear it--we should, instead, point a finger at the accountants who encourage mediocrity (possibly because they don't recognize it), and at the tin-eared press (ever in need of advertising revenue) that blissfully believes press releases. There was a recent time when "bad" was good, but now "bad" is really

bad

and the ring of the cash register is to the industry's corporate ears the only true music. That is the crux of the problem, as I see it.

Let's face it, were it not for re-issues, there would be very little of substance with which to fill the CD bins. Reissues don't bring in tons of money but, accumulatively, they help to finance performances that cannot stand on their own and they give record companies a semblance of being more than a Twinkie factory. Oh, yes, the crap that hits the charts also generates big bucks before it takes a quick path to oblivion (future reissue producer will have a hard time, I suspect)--think of all the weak performances you have heard on SNL and the daily nighttime shows, people you never heard of before and are not likely to hear again. Think also of the enthusiastic whoops and hollers these performers generate from the audience. That brings us to another important factor: the dumbing down of music fans.

Here we can put much blame on the corporate-operated media, not least of all the payola paying, playlist dependent radio stations that dot the country, and the satellite hubs that feed their audio grub to the ears of millions. Madison Avenue proved long ago that excessive repetition can be like a drug, and what is Madison Avenue if not a corporate culture (vulture?). Young audiences are constantly being fed inferior music and told that it is "cool." They are eating it up just as readily as they buy into brand name sneakers and clothes--ah, we're back to Mad Ave, aren't we?

People in the record industry like to tell us how music that feeds the intellect doesn't sell. Well, have they tried to market it? No. Just as Wal-mart and Home Depot is killing off the mom and pop stores, so the music business conglomerates have all but eliminated the local disc jockey who played that great music and loved to listen with you. Gone, too, is the little record store where the man behind the counter knew what you liked and often shared your love for it. And let us not forget the small, independent record label whose owner collected records, just as you did, who recorded the music as a labor of love--hey, these are the guys to whom we owe most of the good stuff that re-emerges with every small advance in audio reproduction technology.

So, all this ramble to say what I think: when it comes to the current pop famine, we should not put the blame on those who create the crap as much as we should put it on those who create the atmosphere in which it thrives.

I am not asking for the return of the "good old days," but I wish we had maintained the level of taste that once almost routinely produced enduring music, and that encouragement of artistic development had not been stifled by corporate and individual greed (as well as the RIAA).

This is too long and rambling for me to re-read it, so I hope it ended up making a modicum of sense.

[jon abbey]

rap has been far more creatively alive over the last 25 years than jazz. worry about your own house, Mr. Drew.

[Chuck Nessa]

rap has been far more creatively alive over the last 25 years than jazz. worry about your own house, Mr. Drew.