Roswell Rudd's "Unheard Herbie Nichols" vols. 1-2 (CIMP)

[Bol]

The reviews on AMG are rather tepid. And the two reviews on Amazon are rather poor. Could people comment on the music and the sound quality of these recordings? Thanks in advance.

[ep1str0phy]

I have Volume I--enjoy it quite a bit, actually. The overall impression is rather 'low-key'--even for a CIMP disc--although there's quite a bit of 'blood in guts' if you look hard enough. Sound quality is standard issue for the record label, and--although the patented CIMP 'asceticism' does manage to dull some moments of deep impact--nothing could mask the fact that the album is three musicians having genuine fun... excellent playing, a lot of intelligence, and (of course) phenomenal compositions. There's joy here--a lot of exuberance, a lot of soul. But don't expect anything really mind altering... it's simply well-crafted, consummate jazz (and I use that term exactingly--this isn't exactly free stuff). Most important of all--this is a Herbie Nichols album, played squarely in his harmonic/rhythmic sphere (simply: if you like HN and RR, the disc will please).

Edited April 13, 2006 by ep1str0phy

[clifford_thornton]

I didn't like those records too much, and sold them. But at this point, I wouldn't mind hearing them again.

It would have been nice hearing Rudd back in "the day" doing Herbie Nichols tunes, possibly with Lacy, Neidlinger and Charles!

One tune he wrote for Herbie, "Respects," is very cool though admittedly it's usually been done in rather out contexts - the Impulse! and America sides. But the connection is there in the theme, if rendered somewhat oblique by the ensuing improvisations.

[clifford_thornton]

And don't forget Shepp and Rudd doing "Lady Sings the Blues" on Live in San Francisco. Wonderful!

[JohnS]

There are some dull spots. One cd made up of the best pieces would have been preferable.

[jazzbo]

I like these, in fact I like these more than quite a few other Rudd pieces (of earlier vintage).

And I like the sound.

Going to have to root these out and spin them again when I'm back home again.

[paul secor]

I have both volumes. My first impression - some time ago - wasn't all that positive. I felt that the music was a bit rough and that a fuller band would have made a difference for the better. Listens (a couple) since then have changed my opinion. I've come to listen to what is there rather than what might have been. What I hear is three musicians "having fun" as ep1strOphy well put it, listening to each other, and perhaps most importantly, playing previously unrecorded versions of Herbie Nichols' compositions. I think that if you like Herbie Nichols and Roswell Rudd, you'll find some good listening on these two recordings. BUT - as I found out, you have to give this music the time and patience it needs.

P.S. - Set your volume level higher than you would for most other CDs - a necessity with all the CIMP CDs I've heard. There have been complaints about the "CIMP sound" here and elsewhere, and I agree to an extent, but this one sounds good to me.

[LWayne]

I did not care for these recordings, although my distaste of the sonic quality was a large factor. I was not ware of the "CIMP sound" and an sure that this would have been useful to know.

LWayne

[ep1str0phy]

I guess I was one of the few to really like these albums on first listen, although I've had to temper my reaction a bit. Again, this isn't the sort of explosive, 'extended technique'-crazy sort of Rudd that made it into the history books, but these are happy, often engaging performances. On the CIMP 'sound' thing (as Paul pointed out somewhere above): I'm of the opinion that it really works for some sessions (e.g. Frank Lowe's 'Lowe-down and Blue') and not at all for others. I'd say that the Rudd discs are somewhere in-between; the music isn't incendiary enough to warrant a more aggressive production, but there are moments where some extra detail--at the very least, something more dynamic--would be nice.

[ep1str0phy]

It would have been nice hearing Rudd back in "the day" doing Herbie Nichols tunes, possibly with Lacy, Neidlinger and Charles!

Yes!

And if you want to daydream (tangentially): Eric Dolphy with Monk. Just to hear the madness unfold.

[paul secor]

It would have been nice hearing Rudd back in "the day" doing Herbie Nichols tunes, possibly with Lacy, Neidlinger and Charles!

Yes!

And if you want to daydream (tangentially): Eric Dolphy with Monk. Just to hear the madness unfold.

Yeah. That would have been something.

On a related note - I was recently listening the the ICP Orchestra playing some Herbie Nichols, and one of the saxophonists played a good solo that was very Dolphyesque. Made me think about what Eric Dolphy might have sounded like playing Herbie Nichols' music.

[clifford_thornton]

As for CIMP, they're sounding fuller these days than back when the Rudd and Burton Greene, etc. sides were recorded. Most of the earlier titles are pretty quiet, in my experience. I think that was one reason why I didn't keep the few that I had, including the Rudds.

[Nate Dorward]

Yeah, the engineering on the more recent albums has a little more oomph than the first few CIMPs -- e.g. the Adam Lane discs are pretty powerful-sounding.

I was terribly disappointed by vol 1 of the Rudd/Nichols, got rid of it a while ago & that's that. The dull solo stuff at the end of the disc was the clincher.

[Kalo]

I agree with a lot of what folks have said above. The ultra-spare instrumentation struck me as a bit perverse at first, I have to admit. But I grew to like these over time. Still, a bit of a disappointment to have some unheard Herbie tunes make their first appearance in such sketchy renditions.

I'll have to pull these out again soon to re-evaluate.

[bertrand]

You want a daydream, here's one:

According to the notes to the Herbie Nichols Mosaic set, Rudd and Nichols played a gig at Yale University WITH TINA BROOKS!

I wonder what music they played. Perhaps someone here knows Rudd?

Bertrand.

[ep1str0phy]

No tunes, but (from Herbie Nichols: The Unpublished Works, 27 Jazz Masterpieces):

"In the fall of 1960, when Herbie first started teaching me some of his tunes, my cousin Charlie Keil, then a senior at Yale University, asked me to round up a couple of other players and join him for an evening of jamming in the Pierson College dining hall. I wanted the best, and so I invited Herbie and Tina Brooks to go along.

We picked Tina up at the designated spot. These were especially hard times for Tina; he was run-down and he didn't even have his horn. When Herbie saw this, he gave me his I-could-have-told-you-so look follwed by his famous interjection for all occasions, his self-styled half-laugh/half-cry sound (hereater referred to as The Sound), thought for a moment, then just started giving out driving directions. An hour later we found ourselves somewhere in the deep Bronx. Herbie got out and disappeared into a building, reappeared after what seemed an eternity carrying a tenor saxophone. And we went on up to New Haven without a word, save for an occasional reprise of The Sound.

It was great to hear Herbie on a good piano for a change and playing with Tina, who, despite the shape he was in, could really give Herbie a run for his money, harmonically speaking..."

-Roswell Rudd

He also mentions a benefit concert for the NAACP--Herbie played Change of Seasion and The Happenings with 'Royal Blue' on sax, Steve Swallow on bass, Billy Higgins on drums, and Rudd. What a band!

[ep1str0phy]

these really do blow, tho' it was early on in the CIMP fiasco & we really did ** try ** way too hard, for Rosie & Herbie both... but life's too short; has any label in history put out more records, by more good/great musicians, that are goddamn bad, or a trial to listen to? my Cadence socks, on the other hand, are still going strong!!

signed,

the crew

p/s1: pretend you don't know the Rudd/Nichols connection & listen to these again

p/s2: Rusch & co. could only have survived by being a little nutty; unfortunately the CIMP project is stubborn & lame. i knew the $$$ arrangements on these too from a drummer i'm pals with who's appeared on a handful... needless to say, while there are practical advantages the arragement, nobody is thrilled w/it either. but in a biz where you fight over chicken bones...

I'm definitely of the mind that the CIMPs are inconsistent, but I'd like to think that I've come to terms with the 'boringness' once or twice. I don't think you can look for anything prime-Rudd--or, especially, Herbie--caliber in the 'Unheard' sessions--but they're pleasant enough, just to get you through a cold afternoon (I didn't try too hard/expect too much, so I'm certainly not disappointed). But--even for my favorite CIMPs--the 'trial' notion is in full effect. It's that very sense of frustration that makes me love the Frank Lowes so much (especially where the chops are shot). But yeah, CIMP has yet to score an unqualified 'victory' with me--I've just stopped waiting for one (and live more easily, as you seem to have long ago discovered).

[clifford_thornton]

The Adam Lane records and the Lasha/Odean are the only things I've heard in recent memory that actually sound "all right," though not enough to get pulled out any more than occasionally. Clem nailed it above, as per usual.

It's a shame that Tina Brooks was dealt (or dealt himself) such a bad hand. He's high on the list of favorite tenormen for me, especially in the hardbop idiom. It would have been something to see that gig!

[clifford_thornton]

Oh yeah, and who is Royal Blue? I feel like I've heard that pseudonym bandied about before, but can't place it.

[ep1str0phy]

Oh yeah, and who is Royal Blue? I feel like I've heard that pseudonym bandied about before, but can't place it.

It's the name of a vocalist that appears on a number of progressive jazz sessions (an Impulse! Shepp side and Rashied Ali's blues album come to mind). I'm assuming that, here, it refers to Tina (although I could be wrong)--another variation on 'True Blue,' maybe?

[clifford_thornton]

Right, NY Ain't So Bad (Survival). Knew that sounded familiar...

You're probably right about Tina.

[bertrand]

The quote Epistrophy gives from the Rudd book of Nichols tunes looks very similar to the anecdote in the Mosaic booklet.

I'm pretty sure 'Royal' is mentioned in there as well, and from the context it is clear that this is NOT a pseudonym for Tina; it's a different person.

I'll try to look this up later.

Bertrand.

[Guest]

The reviews on AMG are rather tepid. And the two reviews on Amazon are rather poor. Could people comment on the music and the sound quality of these recordings? Thanks in advance.

Funny, I just saw this discussion today.

Yesterday night I was in a backstage with Roswell himself and the other musicians after an 'Enrico Rava Quintet w. special guest Roswell Rudd' concert. The Unheard Herbie Nichols I & II are some of the best Rudd in recent years, for me. I had the covers with me -along with Allen Lowe's Dark Was The NIght, Cold Was The Ground cd- and asked him to sign them. He seemd surprised; he said he was impressed that somebody "heard" these records, he said he thought these were "difficult" but very good ones. He said I was a "good listener" and wrote next to the big bunny's ears in the vol.I cover "your ears", and "thank you for your ears".

Anyway I love the recording quality -I like the CIMP dry sound- and the music. This is a sophisticated work around some supposed unedited Nichols material. For Rudd's and Herbie Nichols lovers, maybe better. I'm loving these since the day I bought them in NY (1999).

[AllenLowe]

the quartet sides on "Dark is the Night..." were recorded live to 8 track in Verna Gillis's house - Roswell plays great on these and he once told me that he felt these captured his sound better than any recording he'd ever made - I'm proud to say I also engineered this. The trick was to use a good ribbon mike that could handle one of Roswell's blasts without overloading - the reason, I think, that he does not always sound right on his recordings is that engineers will use compression or limiting to deal with the volume problem, and this ALWAYS sounds fake - that plus isolation makes a lot of current recordings sound artificail, IMHO - that CD has a good room sound, everyone leaks into everyone else's mike, it sounds like people actually playing together -

[Guest]

the quartet sides on "Dark is the Night..." were recorded live to 8 track in Verna Gillis's house - Roswell plays great on these and he once told me that he felt these captured his sound better than any recording he'd ever made - I'm proud to say I also engineered this. The trick was to use a good ribbon mike that could handle one of Roswell's blasts without overloading - the reason, I think, that he does not always sound right on his recordings is that engineers will use compression or limiting to deal with the volume problem, and this ALWAYS sounds fake - that plus isolation makes a lot of current recordings sound artificail, IMHO - that CD has a good room sound, everyone leaks into everyone else's mike, it sounds like people actually playing together -

Hi Mr. Lowe. I think your "Dark Was The Night..." is really a wonderful record, with a beautiful sound indeed. I love the group you had here and the music -more than the other two cds I have of yours; Woyzeck's Death and Mental Strain..... Rudd here really roars, and gives some of the best "straight" playing ever heard from him. You had a really wonderful group here I will always keep in my mind. Every soloing musician seems inspired to try and tell a story (love the bass player, Jeff Fuller, and Ray Kaczynski at the drums too, the way they blend in each track sustaining the players) and I feel honored to tell this to you like I did to Roswell.

Thank you for the hours of fun and delight I had listening to this record