chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 has this ever been noted, if so can you please discuss? inquring minds want to know.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 (edited) has this ever been noted, if so can you please discuss? inquring minds want to know.... Interesting question. I think he may have done, certainly in the period 68-70. I don't know if this helps - here's a list of Soul Jazz albums by organ combos recorded by BN and PR in those years. I've picked that period because, at BN, it represents the period in which Francis Wolff was producing the Soul Jazz, while at PR, it represents (mainly) the period in which Bob Porter was producing the Soul Jazz. Both were new to producing at the time (though they obviously had a lot of experience seeing how things were done), so one might feel that Rudy's advice would have been welcome to each. Obviously, I've picked organ combos because: I like 'em a lot; they're of general interest at Organissimo; Rudy is renowned for recording organists; and comparing the sound of Leon Spencer and Hank Mobley albums seemed a bit silly. I've excluded live sessions. Even within this limited range I've selected, there's a wide variation in sound. But, if you're at all familiar with these albums, I think you can notice a different sound between the PR and BN ones. BNs sound kind of cleaner, less grainy. There are exceptions, of course: "Blue mode" sounds very PR; the Don Pattersons sound a bit BN. However, maybe this was in the mix and dictated by the producers after the event. I don't know. MG Edited July 19, 2006 by The Magnificent Goldberg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parkertown Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 I believe the differences were in eq, reverb, & microphone placement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 I believe the differences were in eq, reverb, & microphone placement. Do you know if that would have been generally, just for that type of recording, or did it reflect different producers' views? MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parkertown Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 I'm really only referring to the "Blue Note Sound" which were ususally Alfred Lion. As far as other labels and producers, I do not know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMP Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 By the way...Did anyone read the interview with John McNeil in the June "Cadence?" McNeil relates how Van Gelder pretty much screwed up his "SteeplChase" session, and makes him out to be a jerk. True or not, an interesting (and funny) interview. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 (edited) By the way...Did anyone read the interview with John McNeil in the June "Cadence?" McNeil relates how Van Gelder pretty much screwed up his "SteeplChase" session, and makes him out to be a jerk. True or not, an interesting (and funny) interview. One of their best interviews in recent times, McNeil has some interesting views. Edited July 19, 2006 by JohnS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted July 19, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 can someone help me recall what the last alfred session was, and what the 1st frank session was?? im guessing 1966 sometime>?!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted July 19, 2006 Report Share Posted July 19, 2006 The last ISSUED Lion session was Bobby Hutcherson's "Oblique. 21 July 1967. The last one he supervised was by Stanley Turrentine - 28 July 1967. This had: Blue Mitchell, Garnett Brown, James Spaulding, McCoy Tyner, Duke Pearson (on organ would you believe?), Bob Cranshaw, Ray Lucas and Richard Landrum. What a band, eh? How could this be crummy? Tracks: The look of love You want me to stop loving you Dr Feelgood (I assume the Ree song) (two takes) Up up and away Georgie girl A foggy day Unfortunately, the BN discography doesn't identify who the producers were of the early post-Lion recordings. The first Wolff job was probably Lou Donaldson's "Mr Shing-a-ling" (27 October 1967). The sleeve note to Donald Byrd's "The creeper" (5 October 1967) says that it was produced by Lion, Wolff and Pearson, which is self-evidently rubbish. The BN discography is quite clear that the Turrentine was Lion's last stand. And I reckon it was Pearson. The sessions previous to the Lou Donaldson were McLean - "'Bout soul" Pearson - "Right touch" Young - "Contrasts" Wilson - "Easterly winds" Byrd - "Creeper" Mobley - "Hi voltage" I can't see any of these being Wolff jobs. The sleeve notes of the Liberty-issued LPs (at least, the few I've got) don't credit the producers, though the CD reissue of the Donaldson does come clean about Wolff producing it. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted July 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 YOYOYOYO ius that turrentine on cd or lp at all? w/ the duke on organ? doing look of love? is that released any way. thats radical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted July 21, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 hey goldberg u just gave me a really good thread idea- see reissues!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 Yeh, that Turrentine session sounds wonderful. It just seems like it would have that great kind of Blue note late sixties vibe...Is this maybe one of those sessions that someone may have heard ie one that has escaped the vaults? Is the Right Touch a Japanese RVG title I seem to remember seeing it avaliable and making a mental note to get a copy when I could afford it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 Wasn't there an interview where Van Gelder admitted he reserved that "special sound" for Blue Note? There was a discussion about this somewhere here - a search for Van Gelder should turn this up. I found his use of reverb pretty phony - well in Hackensack in his parents' living room the acoustics were probably less than great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parkertown Posted July 21, 2006 Report Share Posted July 21, 2006 Yep, I hate the reverb he used on his 50's recordings at Hackensack. It practially ruins the Blue Train date for me. And a couple days ago I was listening to the 2cd Conn set of Introducing Kenny Burrell. On his first album date, on that song, is it "Takeela" or "Rhythmorama"? The part towards the end where Candido Camero and Kenny Clarke go into a percussion break...hell, it was pinging and whooshing all over the place! Sounded like shit! And there was some piece of equipment in his chain that caused an oscillating sound in the reverb...I hate it, hate it, hate it! Listen to Lee Morgan's and Curtis Fuller's solos on Blue Train. Arrggghhhh!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMP Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 No offense, but I never thought Blue Note albums sounded like anything special, especially compared to many of the Contemporary or even Columbia LP's of the period. They sounded fine, but nothing really popped out at me. (And where's the bass? On records like "Hustlin'" and "My Point of View" it disappears!) And, while I've mindlessly replaced my first-generation CD's with the "RVG"'s, I really don't have that many complaints with the earlier releases - they sounded pretty much as I remember the LP's sounding - good, but nothing out of the ordinary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 (edited) No offense, but I never thought Blue Note albums sounded like anything special, especially compared to many of the Contemporary or even Columbia LP's of the period. They sounded fine, but nothing really popped out at me. (And where's the bass? On records like "Hustlin'" and "My Point of View" it disappears!) And, while I've mindlessly replaced my first-generation CD's with the "RVG"'s, I really don't have that many complaints with the earlier releases - they sounded pretty much as I remember the LP's sounding - good, but nothing out of the ordinary. But what about the comparison with Prestige? MG Edited July 22, 2006 by The Magnificent Goldberg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted July 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 To answer the original question - yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMP Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 The Prestige albums seemed to be more "in your face." The first one I ever bought was Miles' "Steamin'" (the last material from that marathon session) and it seemed to leap out at me. (You can't beat those Heathkit amps.) By the way - what about his work for CTI? Much different than the other labels, and very identifiable. Where did he put all those string players?? Did Creed Taylor tell him what to do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted July 23, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 lay of the CTI broski. CTI holds a very distinct place in jazz history. Its like a better arranged, musically more complex-predecessor to the 'smooth jazz' of today, and Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parkertown Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 ARIC!!! ARE U OKAY!!! Your sentence just cut off...like you had collapsed or something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez Posted July 24, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2006 yes but its like 100 degrees- too hot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted July 24, 2006 Report Share Posted July 24, 2006 And there was some piece of equipment in his chain that caused an oscillating sound in the reverb...I hate it, hate it, hate it! Listen to Lee Morgan's and Curtis Fuller's solos on Blue Train. Arrggghhhh!!!! Back in the olden days, the only way to get reverb on a recording from a room that didn't have any natural reverb (other than using "spring" reverbs, like those in guitar amps... yuck) was to build an actual reverb chamber (ie, a big-ass room with lots of reflective surfaces). You mount a speaker at one end and a mic at the other, send the source through the speaker and record it coming back into the mic. I believe Rudy built one underground that was mainly tile, hence the ping-pong effect. The oscillating sound was probably due to wacky nodes in the reflections leading to phase problems. Here is an old thread talking briefly about the differences between the sounds of BN and Prestige: http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php...topic=3370&st=0 And here is an article from Tape-Op magazine that I typed up where Rudy talks a bit about CTI, among other things: http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=13735 To my ears, Rudy still has reverb fever. Some of the recent organ records that he's done have just had too much reverb, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parkertown Posted July 24, 2006 Report Share Posted July 24, 2006 Thanks Jim... Hey! WTF!! There's no "Fast Reply" button in this thread...? There was over in the Hammond forum... Upgrading? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted July 24, 2006 Report Share Posted July 24, 2006 There is now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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