JSngry Posted July 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 That became the record that started the Brighton DJs going for "Acid jazz". Really! Were you into that scene at all? I ask because I've got more than a few American musician friends who not only refuse to believe that people were actually dancing to this stuff (in either pure or remixed form), but also that people can't and shouldn't dance to it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 That became the record that started the Brighton DJs going for "Acid jazz". Really! Were you into that scene at all? I ask because I've got more than a few American musician friends who not only refuse to believe that people were actually dancing to this stuff (in either pure or remixed form), but also that people can't and shouldn't dance to it! Not quite; I'd left Brighton 9 years by then. Though my second hand monos, when I stereofied them, may have fuelled some of the local DJs - so you could blame me and my mate. But it's true; people were dancing to this material; in England, not so much in Wales. And still do. This took off in '83 and really became big in '84. I remember when Jack McDuff's "Lift every voice and sing" and Jimmy Ponder's "Down here on the ground" came out, they got terrific reviews in "Blues and Soul", the magazine that, at the time, really represented this movement. And in the same issue, there was an account of the "Caister Weekender" (Caister being one of the old fashioned holiday camps which were out of style for holidays, but which kept going by encouraging weekend-long non-stop dance orgies). In this account, and I kid you not, appeared the following words: "Don Wilkerson is God". Personally, I've only come across it when I've been to see a visiting American Soul Jazz musician at a dance hall venue rather than a jazz club. I saw John Patton when he cme over and the two hours before he came on were absolutely filled with stuff like David Newman, Hank Mobley, Grant Green, Art Blakey. And the floor was packed with dancers (including me some of the time). Same thing when I saw Hank Crawford & Jimmy McGriff, and Charles Earland and Jimmy Smith at this type of venue. I have very mixed feelings about it, actually. On the negative side, I don't think the audiences are really appreciating what the musicians are doing; just the groove. And I believe that has led, in America and over here, to the creation of music that is all groove and no story - Smooth Jazz. Also on the negative side, my mate and I (practically the only people in the country who were buying it in the '60s and '70s) used to be able to pick this stuff up dead cheap - the DJs raised the prices of 2nd hand John Pattons etc to over 100 pounds. On the positive side, I always want the musicians I like to be successful. Many of them have said they earned more in this period than they ever had before. And positive or negative, whatever I think makes no difference to the way the world goes, so... MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 Wow!! Amazing story, amazing info. Thanks for sharing that!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 Absolutely! And as far as the negative of the dancers not fully appreciating the music, hell, I know plenty people who sit still and listen who don't really appreciate what it is they're hearing either, so AFAIC, that's a wash... Bottom line for me - I don't trust anybody who doesn't at least feel the urge to dance. I don't think it's either natural or healthy to not feel that. And I really don't trust people who don't dance but turn up their nose at the act and those who do. Something deeply wrong about that... It's good, natural, and healthy to feel the urge to dance. So why not do it to some good Soul Jazz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 Absolutely! And as far as the negative of the dancers not fully appreciating the music, hell, I know plenty people who sit still and listen who don't really appreciate what it is they're hearing either, so AFAIC, that's a wash... Bottom line for me - I don't trust anybody who doesn't at least feel the urge to dance. I don't think it's either natural or healthy to not feel that. And I really don't trust people who don't dance but turn up their nose at the act and those who do. Something deeply wrong about that... It's good, natural, and healthy to feel the urge to dance. So why not do it to some good Soul Jazz? I really do agree, Jim. But what's fairly symptomatic of the lack of appreciation is the elevation of some albums to cult status. At the same time as great albums by Big John were fetching horrendous prices, so were albums like this: Verve reissued this album earlier this year. I don't know what prices originals were fetching, but it was another cult item. I got it the other day. Frankly, I got it because I wanted to see what the fuss was all about. I dare say that's why Verve put it out. OK, Eddie Fisher is a better guitarist than Elizabeth Taylor's ex. No, that's not fair. He's a pretty reasonable guitarist with too much of a penchant for wah-wah. It's not a bad album. There's a long track on it that's fairly nice. And there are a few groove items. But as for it being of equal value to anything by Big John, GG or a hundred other great Soul Jazz musicians, no. Rarity value drove this. The DJs want to be able to play things no one else can. So they find something that's really hard to get and hype it. That can only work, in my view, if the demands of the audience are limited to the groove. Eddie Fisher is still around and has a couple of albums at CD Baby. I don't know what they're like. I'm not putting him down. But this is a good, and precisely contemporary, example of an attitude to music that is rather uncritical. "I don't care what it's like, so long as it's got a good groove." No, it's more than that. It's that the audience doesn't care about Eddie Fisher. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 Understood, really. You get the same thing w/the "Funky 45s" thing - some real gems, some things that are amature in the extreme, and some that are just mediocre. They all got that groove, and if that's all you want, hey, good for you. But me, I like some food with my sauce, if you know what I mean... Then again, I'm more and more looking at it like hey - the shit's getting inside you, making you feel good, making you want to celebrate life rather than destroy it, turning you towards the light instead of the dark, so exactly what are you not getting? If we gotta save the world through the feet first, so be it. Free your mind and your ass will follow might've worked back in the day, but shit's gotten so perverted over the last 25 or so years that today the opposite route might be in order. I dunno... What I do know is that I think I'm gonna check me out some Bembe Segue pretty soon! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 hey - the shit's getting inside you, making you feel good, making you want to celebrate life rather than destroy it, turning you towards the light instead of the dark, so exactly what are you not getting? Well, you're right. There's more than enough crap in the world to worry about. And yet... I just posted a little rant on AAJ, which I think I'll copy here, though the context is different. I think people have been increasingly encouraged to focus on specific things. And not just in relation to entertainment. Shortly before I retired, I realised that younger people at the office didn't think they were doing a job; they had "tasks". A task is a limited thing you're suposed to do. A job is a relationship with an organisation and, through it, the wider world that the organisation is trying to achieve something in - whether that be selling something or, as in my case, making economic changes for the better. If you have a job, the whole environment is suposed to stimulate you. If you do a task, you can object if someone asks you to do something that isn't written down in the spec. If you do a job, then when something odd happens - and something odd is ALWAYS happening in real life - you can make up a response to set things right (perhaps not on your own initiative). If you have a task, you're stumped when something comes off the wall. End of rant. I think I see all this stuff as being connected. What I do know is that I think I'm gonna check me out some Bembe Segue pretty soon! MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 I think people have been increasingly encouraged to focus on specific things. And not just in relation to entertainment. Shortly before I retired, I realised that younger people at the office didn't think they were doing a job; they had "tasks". A task is a limited thing you're suposed to do. A job is a relationship with an organisation and, through it, the wider world that the organisation is trying to achieve something in - whether that be selling something or, as in my case, making economic changes for the better. If you have a job, the whole environment is suposed to stimulate you. If you do a task, you can object if someone asks you to do something that isn't written down in the spec. If you do a job, then when something odd happens - and something odd is ALWAYS happening in real life - you can make up a response to set things right (perhaps not on your own initiative). If you have a task, you're stumped when something comes off the wall. End of rant. I think I see all this stuff as being connected. I couldn't agree more! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexander Hawkins Posted July 22, 2006 Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 On this whole South London/Brighton scene thing, I did a gig at a club in London a couple of weeks ago, and in between sets, they had some DJs. These guys almost all put on BN vinyl - the crowd (it was absolutely heaving) were going completely crazy at the Lonnie Smith, Brother Jack, Cannonball, etc. - but also, going beserk to things like (I kid you not - this was the outstanding example for me) 'Love for Sale' from Dexter's 'Go'. I was absolutely gobsmacked, because although I know this stuff was going on 20 or so years ago, I had no idea clubs like this were still going! I have to say, it was awesome being caught up in the whole thing. I have mixed feelings (along the lines given above) about the whole thing, but to be there, and wired like you are when you're playing - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 22, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2006 Dude, if I could catch a scene like that, I would be totally...er...uh....gobsmacked. I think. And let me tell you this - if you're single, find you a woman who willingly gets funky to Dexter Gordon on the dance floor. If she's not drugged out or anything, you can probably have a very happy private life, if you know what I mean. Americans the world over are drooling at the notion, trust me. You got it right in your hood. Carpe diem! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 (edited) These guys almost all put on BN vinyl - the crowd (it was absolutely heaving) were going completely crazy No wonder the original Blue Note LPs are becoming so hard to get and so expensive over here these days ! There's a bit of coverage of this soul jazz DJ thing on the 'Jazz Britannia' TV series that the BBC did some time ago. All started up around 1982-83 with jazz-influenced groups like 'Rip Rig and Panic' and 'Pigbag' becoming popular with the dance crows. Heck, I even remember Pigbag doing a jazz freakout on 'Top of the Pops'. Wasn't Sun Ra's 'Nuclear War' on Y Records also popular with this crowd? Edited July 23, 2006 by sidewinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 These guys almost all put on BN vinyl - the crowd (it was absolutely heaving) were going completely crazy No wonder the original Blue Note LPs are becoming so hard to get and so expensive over here these days ! There's a bit of coverage of this soul jazz DJ thing on the 'Jazz Britannia' TV series that the BBC did some time ago. All started up around 1982-83 with jazz-influenced groups like 'Rip Rig and Panic' and 'Pigbag' becoming popular with the dance crows. Heck, I even remember Pigbag doing a jazz freakout on 'Top of the Pops'. Wasn't Sun Ra's 'Nuclear War' on Y Records also popular with this crowd? A couple of others that you wouldn't expect to be popular were Pharoah Sanders' "You gotta have freedom" (not sure which version), Dizzy Gillespie's "Mas que nada" and Gigi Gryce's "Minority". MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 A couple of others that you wouldn't expect to be popular were Pharoah Sanders' "You gotta have freedom" (not sure which version That's probably the version on the Theresa 2LP set 'Journey To The One'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted July 23, 2006 Report Share Posted July 23, 2006 A couple of others that you wouldn't expect to be popular were Pharoah Sanders' "You gotta have freedom" (not sure which version That's probably the version on the Theresa 2LP set 'Journey To The One'. I think he had previously done one on Arista. It might be that. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 I've just finished reading Fred Wesley's autobiography. Very surprised - perhaps relieved? - to see that he was saying the same thing about the Acid Jazz scene as I tried the other day - only he put it rather more expertly than I could. The context is the show he, Maceo and Pee Wee put together and toured with extensively in Europe for several years. "It was still fun and the money was getting better and better, but the gig was getting more and more boring. What had started out as an exciting musicial venture between the three of us had deteriorted into one long vamp after another. What had started as a very musicial gig had been reduced to a dance party attended by young, beer-drinking, pot-smoking, ecstasy-dropping white teenagers and young adults. The fact that I had the best chops of my life didn't make any difference at all to me or to the audience. They really only needed to see the guys who had once played with James Brown and hear any semblance of the beat and they were satisfied. This made my pockets fat, but I felt like I was shooting sparrows with a bazooka - totally wasting my skills and talent. I could have played "Mary had a little lamb" and the fact that it was Fred Wesley playing was good enough for these drunk, high-out-of-their-minds kids." There are two points here. The most obvious is that the undiscerning drunk deserve to be taken for mugs, as seems to have happened with Smooth Jazz. The second is that the audience was culturally miles away - worlds away - from the roots of the music. You'd see the same kind of people turning up for Oumou Sangare, Chaka Demus & Pliers and Hugh Masekela. So it's unsurprising that they weren't interested in the nuances of all of these different kinds of music, merely the most superficial aspects. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 ...it's unsurprising that they weren't interested in the nuances of all of these different kinds of music, merely the most superficial aspects. No, not at all. OTOH, if I have a choice between playing for an audience that consists only of knowledgable listeners or playing the exact same music for one that consists of that same group plus, say, five times as many more who have little or no "deep" knowlege, well, I'm taking the latter, at least on an ongoing basis. The cycle of complaining that you can't get people in the house, and then when you do, complaining that they don't really get what you're doing is one that I'm all too familiar with, and frankly, I'm tired of it. If you need to be loved or "understood", take it up with your wife, if you know what I mean. But play whatever music you play because you love doing it, not because you want to be loved for doing it. Don't get me wrong - any fan who really understands your music is a blessing, and one can never have too many blessings. And too many "fans" who don't have a clue can be a bummer, no matter how positive an outlook you try to keep about it. All I'm saying is that the fans who don't get it can put money in your pocket and gigs on your callendar just as easily as those who do. More easily perhaps, since there's always going to be more of them. So some perspective is in order, I think, as is some gratitude to balance the cynicism. Both the gratitude and the cynicism are valid, but when one gets out of balance from the other, perspectives get warped and that's when shit starts getting really wierd. Bottom line for me - be true to yourself, take what you can get, get what you can take, and run like hell with it to the bank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted July 27, 2006 Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 [bottom line for me - be true to yourself, take what you can get, get what you can take, and run like hell with it to the bank. That's what Fred did. Don't forget, he was doing that tour for about 8 years. But in the end... MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted July 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted July 27, 2006 But in the end... He wrote a book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ep1str0phy Posted July 29, 2006 Report Share Posted July 29, 2006 These guys almost all put on BN vinyl - the crowd (it was absolutely heaving) were going completely crazy No wonder the original Blue Note LPs are becoming so hard to get and so expensive over here these days ! There's a bit of coverage of this soul jazz DJ thing on the 'Jazz Britannia' TV series that the BBC did some time ago. All started up around 1982-83 with jazz-influenced groups like 'Rip Rig and Panic' and 'Pigbag' becoming popular with the dance crows. Heck, I even remember Pigbag doing a jazz freakout on 'Top of the Pops'. Wasn't Sun Ra's 'Nuclear War' on Y Records also popular with this crowd? A couple of others that you wouldn't expect to be popular were Pharoah Sanders' "You gotta have freedom" (not sure which version), Dizzy Gillespie's "Mas que nada" and Gigi Gryce's "Minority". MG On somewhat of a tangent: I've been shocked at the ongoing, if unlikely popularity of "Minority." I picked it up in a University combo a while back and it became a staple--harmonically simple, driving, and catchy as hell. Considering the relative obscurity of the tune, I'm surprised that it has made the rounds in such a manner--a sleeper classic? (P.S.--thanks for the recollections, guys) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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