Bob Dylan Modern Times

[ghost of miles]

I have some Leroy Foster (Aristocrat 1234, "Locked Out Boogie" b/w "Shady Grove Blues") here on the 2-cd "Best of Aristocrat"

That is a hell of a collection--right up there with THE COBRA RECORDS STORY and the three-CD Vanguard when I think of my favorite Chicago blues compilations. (AND THIS IS MAXWELL STREET in the running as well.) If it's still in print, those who like Chi-town blues are highly advised to run down a copy.

[Adam]

side Q: Adam, are you considering material from Harry's Vol. IV or just the original Folkways three?

to quote the last line of great Phil Ochs review of yore,

blow me Zimmy,

c

Hi,

There are a couple songs from vol. IV that are in the mix as well, 'Last Fair Deal Gone Down" covered by Beck, "Dog and Gun" by Richard Thompson. The concerts all happened in 1999-2001 - this is a box set coming out on Oct. 24 with 2 CDs of music from the concerts, and 2 DVDs, 1 of performances, 1 on Harry Smith and the Anthology. I worked on the two DVDs, not on the CDs. But I can start a separate thread on the box where I try to get you all to buy it.

[Alexander]

There are a couple songs from vol. IV that are in the mix as well, 'Last Fair Deal Gone Down" covered by Beck, "Dog and Gun" by Richard Thompson. The concerts all happened in 1999-2001 - this is a box set coming out on Oct. 24 with 2 CDs of music from the concerts, and 2 DVDs, 1 of performances, 1 on Harry Smith and the Anthology. I worked on the two DVDs, not on the CDs. But I can start a separate thread on the box where I try to get you all to buy it.

I'm looking forward to this. I read about the concerts recently and I was interested to see that Beck was involved. I LOVE the Anthology and I'd love to hear the music from the concerts...

[Hot Ptah]

I don't understand those who defend Dylan taking full credit for "Rollin' and Tumblin'" and "Trouble No More" by stating that those songs pre-dated Muddy Waters and thus Muddy should not have been given a songwriting credit for them. This argument often continues by citing Robert Johnson songs and other songs which pre-dated the version that is copyrighted.

So what? Can't Bob do the right thing in 2006?

Is a new Presidential graft scandal perfectly all right because "Warren G. Harding did it in the 1920s with Teapot Dome--it's part of a folk tradition!" Why does an old violation decades ago justify a new violation today?

[ep1str0phy]

Although I honestly have no opinion on the Dylan, I'll jump in on the Beck--if only to say that his earlier, independent label folk/experimental stuff (and now I sound the elitist) is quite different from the hopped up techno/disco/space pop gloss that he's been working with the past few years (and I actually happen to enjoy a lot of that, if only because I literally grew up with Beck's early career--sentimentalism is as poor an argument as any, to be sure--and I somewhat am and most certainly was not as well versed in the hip-hop that Beck so publicly parodied as I should like). Regardless, I'd take that earlier material to be of a different breed--lo-fi, alternativish folk, to give it a genre, but in its own way a great deal more sincere and affecting than the major label stuff. And I wouldn't fault that guy on sources--beyond broad stylistic rips, of course, of which there are several...

[Alexander]

context lightbulb aha!-- i HATE beck, esp. his bathetic, banal fake-ass 'folk' pop, "Sea Change." i laffed heartily when i later learned he was scientologist too. no disrespect to Adam's work (Willner's ecumenicism is always cause for equal cheers & shivers but hey, I think Lou Reed is inane jackoff also) but just to say Al & I ain't gonna agree on dick. i have no opinion on beck's disco/funk tho' i wonder how much hip-hop his biggest fans listen to.

ptah: stay strong, we're w/you, brutha'. booby done fucked up this time.

c

I'm a big Lou Reed fan as well (not "Metal Machine Music," but I have everything by the Velvet Underground and several of his more important solo albums).

[Adam]

Lou Reed's track on here is quite intense, one of the best. So we may disagree on this one, Clem.

I didn't know that Beck was a Scientologist. Are you sure about that?

Anyway, I saw him in concert at the Wiltern recently and it was a fun show. Good puppets, and my friend & I danced. Beck was in good voice.

[Chuck Nessa]

Sorry, why all this obsession with music from your youth? Don't have shit to do with reality.

[medjuck]

Sorry, why all this obsession with music from your youth? Don't have shit to do with reality.

"Music from our youth!!" I was middle-aged by the time a lot of these artists made their mark. Meanwhile I'm obsessed with music from before I was born.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

screw modern times bob shuld of just released a live dvd of his 2005 tour. he took his bob dylan songs and made them even more country than usual, w/ pedal steel and violin again n stuff. it was AWESOME

[J Larsen]

I didn't know that Beck was a Scientologist. Are you sure about that?

I'm not Clem, but I am sure about Beck being a Scientologist.

[jazzbo]

Well I finally got to hear Modern Times, once. I'll listen to it again (and again).

I'm with Hot Ptah on this theivery of the songs however, I don't think Dylan should get a pass on this, no matter how much I admire his work and understand the process of regurgitating the tradition. It has to be a deliberate move to not credit some or all of the sources for these tunes he's appropriated.

I sort of think it's a facet of his personality. The man started off stealing the image and personality of a true individual. He rose to fame in a blinding burst of truly innovative writing (even if founded on some traditional tunes) . . . I mean "Masters of War", "Visions of Johanna," "She Belongs to Me". . . Amazing stuff, unlike anything else. He became ridiculously popular and "successful" and he tried on some other outfits, the Nashville ones for example that brought out the movie, the Cash sessions, and the (in my opinion masterful) "Blood on the Tracks capper to that run. He put on roots rockers clothes with The Band, he put on greasepaint for the seventies greasy rock Revue, he put on evangelical robes to do Christ rock and gospel rewrites. . . .

Who is this guy is probably a legitimate question? Was he ever himself? I think he has the self-destructive and insecure personality of a gambler and a thief. I think he makes these costume changes as a ploy to get himself primed for keeping the love-hate cycle he has with fame and fortune going when it needs to be going. And I think this love of theft and love and theft of the old songs is a part of the self-destructive thrill. It's one way for him to be on top of the hill and yet one slip away from the fall to the valley below. It's got to be an excitement for him, one of those spinal column chill things that he may not get otherwise. It's parcel of the personality he seems to have exhibited from the start, it's the fully matured old man version. That's how I see it, I could be wrong. It's almost as if he's daring to be called on this and held to task, and chuckling that he still has them all at bay.

The cd itself? Some good Texas blues boogie music again. Denny Freeman on board, Denny delivers, in my opinion he always has, I've seen him up close and personal dozens of times. . . . It's not a great cd, not a Dylan masterpiece, but it's entertaining, I'll get some mileage out of it.

[jazzbo]

I never read the Chronicle, about four years ago decided that was a waste of time. No looking back. I don't need to READ about Texas music. I can smell it in the air or just remember a few bad nights on stage at Steamboat.

[jazzbo]

dude you and I have very different musical tastes and I don't HAVE to read anything, I don't have to read ANYTHING. Arrogance is your attitude that whatever isn't swimming in your pool is a shark or a turd in the bowl. I just get sick of that 'tude dude.

I was IN the music scene for a spell and decided it was not for me and I just don't want to go there. I wouldn't go to Emos with all those college kids for love or money. I'm a grownup now. I'm just done with all that and don't need to read about stuff or pretend I'm hip. Don't need to be out on the scene any longer, I've got my life and I'm happy with it, all but the employment part, but I'm toughing out three more years til retirement, and then deciding whether to blow Austinville for somewhere closer to family, or doing something fun or fulfilling in the town for grins and less dollars.

Actually, I'm quite interested in social activism and do my lilttle bits though admittedly less now as I have caretaking full time to do, but the Chronicle. . . just can't get past the "too cool for school" look and attitude and I just don't read stuff on newsprint anymore. I just don't have the time for stuff like that, I'm maxed out on a lot of other things.

I know what I want to know about Texas music and I leave the rest.

[jazzbo]

Hey Brian, grow up and get a life!

I don't care what eyes are upon me.

I know a little about Don Walser so what. He doesn't impact my world. I've got lots of music to listen to and lots of new things coming at me. I don't need the Chronicle for anything. I get local news from lots of sources. I actually happen to BE local. I regulate my time because I don't have enough of it for all the things I want to do. I'm over Pee Wee Crayton. I don't give a flute about Willie or Doug Sahm. I don't care if I've ever gone to Henry's. So what? More and more you're showing me that I have little in common with you or your priorities and the reverse is true. I'll just skip your posts. . . they used to be interesting, but now they're just you puffing up your chest and saying "look at me I'm so hip." Good for you!

See ya.

[jazzbo]

See there you go with your tired old shtick that anyone who isn't an arrested adolescent interested in exactly the same things you are is just (insert insult #345).

It's really wearying Brian.

Honestly, I've grown up, I have my introverted life finally arranged well, I don't need smokey dives and drunken frat boys and stoned out burn outs so I avoid most of the Austin night scene. It's for younger folk, or people who are living in a different reality. If you like swimming that sort of a pond, go for the breast stroke.

See ya BB.

[jazzbo]

Um Brian, I just don't want to share some private details with you, that's all. You sure don't make it attractive to do so. I think you're mistaken that I even want to hold a dialog with you. I don't reconcile my posting on Mighty 'Mo at all. I don't tie things up into little bows. Reconciliation is for accountants.

I don't personally care about what you think about my not reading the newspaper, the newspapers here bite and I would rather get my news online. I can safely ignore spending a lot of time on the life of Don Wasler, thank you very much. I know quite a bit about Texas blues boogie music, even from personal experience. But why should you concern yourself about that? You've already proven yourself the hip Peter Pan and impressed. . . someone I'm sure.

Dreadful sorry.

To get back on topic, I found this post from http://pool.dylantree.com/phorum5/read.php?1,654272 howlingly funny:

More stolen lyrics on Modern times!!!!!!

Posted by: Liam (---.ipt.aol.com)

Date: September 17, 2006 01:05AM

So I was listening to Modern Times, and just by coincidence I was also reading this book called "Bible," and sure enough, I noticed a bunch of phrases, lines, and concepts that Dylan stole.

For instance, the line "We all wear the same thorny crown" from "When the Deal Goes Down." In "Bible," there's a character named Jesus who also wears a crown of thorns.

Also, in "Bible," Jesus gives a whole sermon on how you should love thy neighbor. Sure enough, in "Ain't talkin," look at what Dylan so-called wrote on his own:

"I am a-tryin' to love my neighbor and do good unto others " Hmm, still think it's all a crazy COINCIDENCE? Then read on:

On Modern Times' defining track, "Beast with Two Backs," Dylan says, "It's gettin' hot, it's gettin' clear, There's a Beast approachin', and Armageddon outta here."

And meanwhile, "Bible" ends with (SPOILER) an event called "Armageddon" which involves the arrival of a "beast."

Anyway, stay tuned, because I have a plan to take care of that thieving Dylan, oooh! he makes me so mad!

Hot Ptah, more I think of it the more I agree with you. . . it's just wrong.

[jazzbo]

Ah Brian, I think you really overestimate the Chronicle. I think it's not that great. Have you ever gone to their offices? I went once years ago and it really turned me OFF. I kept reading that rag less and less. And less. If you dig it, fine. I've got no use for it myself.

What is there to talk about. . . Texas blues boogie music. You know what that is right? As he's hiring Charlie Sexton and Denny Freeman to sixstring Bob knows what it's about. It's not rocket science, doesn't need in depth analysis.

Look. I don't like a lot of the artists you trash, and I don't like a lot of the artists you laud. I have about 37 years of collecting recordings under my belt, and I don't need your guidance about Don or any country artist, or Texas artist, I already know what I like, and it does NOT include a lot of Texas country artists, sorry. I know why I don't like them. I don't pursue learning about things I'm not really interested in. Life is way too short for me. I'm not certain how many years I have on you, but I think it's a few. I don't have enough time to pursue those things that I AM interested in. But that is where I'm putting the effort. Texas country guys, even Wills and other swingers, just aren't on my list. I know a little about them, enough for me not to go further because. . . I don't want to.

You're not my third grade teacher so stop acting as if you were and handing out assignments. I don't want them. Maybe some others here want your homework. Any takers?

Lost and gone forever.

[Alexander]

I didn't know that Beck was a Scientologist. Are you sure about that?

I'm not Clem, but I am sure about Beck being a Scientologist.

Even if he is, so the hell what? Does Clem refuse to listen to Chick Corea, too?

[Alexander]

Who is this guy is probably a legitimate question?

Who is Dylan? When I think of that question, I think of the Kris Kristofferson song...Dylan is "partly fact, partly fiction...a walking contradiction..."

[Alexander]

You're not my third grade teacher so stop acting as if you were and handing out assignments. I don't want them. Maybe some others here want your homework. Any takers?

Lost and gone forever.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I find Brian/Clem's "hipper than thou" attitude to be extremely off-putting. The funny thing is that I get a LOT of ideas for music to check out from people on this board. When Jim or Lon or any number of people say, "Hey, check this out. It's really good," I'm likely to check it out. But Clem's "go listen to this and then come back and we'll talk" bit really makes me NOT want to try out the music he recommends...

[Kalo]

I just finished reading Dylan's Chronicles Vol. 1, which is well worth the time spent on it, and one thing he cops to from the very beginning of his songwriting career is appropriating chord structures, melodies, and lyrical fragments from all over the place. From the very beginning.

Nothing new under the sun.

[Soul Stream]

I play with DF whenever he's off the road with Dylan, as in just last weekend. I get the feeling that BD just digs his working band and had a lot of ideas and songs he wanted to record with them while they were hot and together. I think BD realized he had put together a pretty nice little blues band and took advantage of it. I'm not much of a Dylan expert, but doesn't seem like there's nothing wrong with that. If people would quit bitching that he's not as good as he used to be, maybe they could enjoy some good music. Ripping off blues guys...shit that's ALL blues guys do...is rip each other's shit off. You think BD doesn't know he's twisting that stuff to his liking....being a thief in a long line of thieves.

[jazzbo]

Clem you'd be surprised at how many living guys I hear. And lots of unsung unrecorded friends too.

I know who Bell and Day were. No interest in that folky Texas stuff though. Yodelers need not apply. Sorry. Dreadful sorry.

Hard-hearted? Just decided to give you back a little of your tactic.

Hipster? Hardly. Don't care.

See ya.

Edited October 1, 2006 by jazzbo

[jazzbo]

Yeah Mike, blues guys rip off blues guys. Or did back further in the day.

There's something different to what Dylan is doing NOW when he has the power to be responsible, toss a few coins to estates,etc. And it's not just blues guys he's ripped!

I see it as reckless behavior (which is I think in his case the point) and I don't think musicans and composers would want it to be emulated and repeated by others.