Bob Dylan Modern Times

[rostasi]

Ha! yeah, Terry Allen from way back! Of course, I'm here in Texas you know.

Remember that even the youngsters of the North Mississippi Allstars

gave proper credit (i.e. not themselves) for Someday Baby.

[HolyStitt]

To me, you are comparing apples and oranges.

I love Terry Allen and a whole wide variety of music you are discussing, but I can still enjoy "Modern Times."

[Chuck Nessa]

Never paid much attention to Dylan so I won't enter the discussion beyond saying I saw him 3 times. In 1966 I was on a northbound Clark St bus (Chicago) with him and Albert Grossman. I thought he was withdrawn and pretentious. I was leading them to some club and dropped them there. Next I saw him in concert with the Band circa 1974 in Boston and remember it as a terrific public performance. About 5 years (?) later I was at a day long taping of a PBS tribute to John Hammond. Most musicians (Basie, Goodman, Sonny Terry, George Benson, etc) watched the development of the show. Dylan spend about 12 hours in the dressing room. This did not impress me but his set was fine.

[Larry Kart]

I heard Dylan play in a University of Chicago dorm room back in 1960 or '61, when he was still Bob Zimmerman. The U. of C. had a very active folky scene back then, which gave rise to the justly celebrated U. of C. Folk Festival, and a lot of those players were very good, doing their personal offshoots of stuff on the famous Harry Smith Folkways label anthology -- much better musically than Dylan-Zimmerman, I thought. On the other hand, the guys he played with that night sounded noticeably better when they played with him than they normally did, which even then I assumed he was somehow responsible for.

On the other hand, not one bit of Dylan's own songwriting, lyric writing, playing, and singing that has crept over my transom in all the years since then has appealed to me in the least. In fact, if the CIA wanted to get me to talk, twelve hours of Dylan would do the trick, easy.

[Larry Kart]

Top clear up any confusion, I meant that the guys that Dylan played with that night were much better musically than he was IMO.

[Alexander]

I think that Clem means that some people could get a better perspective on Dylan and his "roots"

by checking out some of the overlooked guys who haven't had the constant flashlight

(not even laser pointer) directed at them.

Listening to something like Nobody Knows the Trouble I've Been can give some insight.

Rod

Been listening to what could be considered Dylan's country, blues, folk, and r&b roots for many a year. I recognize what Dylan cribs and often know where he cribbed it from. And yet I still like "Modern Times." My ignorance is boundless apparently...

And while I don't have the Willie Atlantic set, I do have quite a bit of Willie Nelson...

Edited September 17, 2006 by Alexander

[medjuck]

I heard Dylan play in a University of Chicago dorm room back in 1960 or '61, when he was still Bob Zimmerman.

Probably the Winter or Spring of '62. Accorsing to one of his (many ) biographies he stopped in Chicago on his trip to New York to find Woody Guthrie. He met up with Kevin Krown and scuffled around campus for a few weeks.

[rostasi]

Been listening to what could be considered Dylan's country, blues, folk, and r&b roots for many a year. I recognize what Dylan cribs and often know where he cribbed it from. And yet I still like "Modern Times."

Understand perfectly. That's why I said some - not painting with a wide brush here. Clem's got his own words. Mine are not that nobody should listen, but that I'm a bit surprised when some musically and culturally literate folks that I know in person and some online who have great taste don't seem to have a problem with his copping more than just influence, chording, or the slyly borrowed lyric to call his own. It doesn't really matter what I think of his music, I'm just confused about the go-ahead that this guy gets. Maybe it's some strange mix of influence/sound that I'm not getting. Maybe he's kind of a Cliff Notes for the downhome blues lover or something. It's like getting your African music fix from David Byrne or Paul Simon. I like Byrne, but I'd never call him a genius of African music - yet, Dylan gets all of these accolades of being a genius lyricwriter, songwriter, instrumentalist, and probably ice cream truck driver if his fans were ever asked. I never would try to dissuade anybody from listening to the music they enjoy - it's just a strange mystery to me that I can't unscramble. That's all, really (for me). Clem will have more to say I'm sure.

Rod

[Larry Kart]

Winter/Spring '62 for Dylan/Zimmerman's visit would fit. Actually, Spider John Koerner and Dave "Snaker" Ray had been around the U. of C. campus (singly or together, I can't be sure) shortly before or after Dylan/Zimmerman arrived. IIRC they made a better impression musically, but because Big Joe Williams was also present fairly often, certain differences were clear.

[JSngry]

...I'm a bit surprised when some musically and culturally literate folks that I know in person and some online who have great taste don't seem to have a problem with his copping more than just influence, chording, or the slyly borrowed lyric to call his own...I'm just confused about the go-ahead that this guy gets.

Well hell dude, if you're gonna be the Voice Of A Generation, that's a lot of voices you gotta steal from.

[Hot Ptah]

It's been a long time since Dylan was the Voice of a Generation.

I am also surprised by the, shall we say, latitude that many are willing to give Dylan for the outright copying of at least the music of copyrighted works here.

If Norah Jones took the exact music to "Lay Lady Lay", used some of Dylan's lyrics and added some verses of her own, and then released it as solely her composition, with no credits or attribution, what would be the reaction?

But Bob gets a huge pass when he does it.

[jazzbo]

Well, I'm not handing him a pass. I think it's weird. . . . Why aren't there lawyers all over it? Has he done some legal work already, behind the scenes, in advance of release? I sure don't have answers.

[JSngry]

It's been a long time since Dylan was the Voice of a Generation.

And yet here we are.

[rostasi]

Found these on another website {Shit...Man!}:

(with thanks to our own "Kulu Se Mama")

Edited September 17, 2006 by rostasi

[JSngry]

Found these on another website {Shit Man!}:

Well there you have it - Bob's saying that the "modern times" are all about shameless theivery. Who knew?

Still the voice of a generation!

[Aggie87]

From the NY Times ...

The Ballad of Henry Timrod

By SUZANNE VEGA

Published: September 17, 2006

I AM passionate about Bob Dylan. As a songwriter, I find there is nothing like singing “It’s Alright Ma (I’m Only Bleeding).” It is nearly eight minutes of cascading images, rich language and the coolest, most unexpected metaphors. My synapses light up in little fireworks, making connections they don’t get to make in ordinary life.

So I read with curiosity about the similarities between some lyrics on his new album and the verses of a forgotten Civil War-era poet. Who is Henry Timrod? Is it true that Mr. Dylan has been borrowing from his poetry? I ran out and bought the CD — not downloading it, because I wanted the lyric booklet. I wanted to see the evidence. And, of course, I discovered that he includes no lyrics in the CD package. No words at all, not even liner notes. Bob isn’t making this easy.

It’s modern to use history as a kind of closet in which we can rummage around, pull influences from different eras, and make them into collages or pastiches. People are doing this with music all the time. I hear it in, say, Christina Aguilera’s new album, or in the music of Sufjan Stevens.

So I had an open mind when approaching this Dylan album — which is called “Modern Times,” by the way. Does this method of working extend to a lyric? To a metaphor? To Bob Dylan’s taking an exact phrase from some guy we never heard of from the middle of the 19th century without crediting him? That’s what I needed to satisfy myself about.

For example, recently I saw a poem on the subway that startled me. It is by the 13th-century Sufi poet Rumi.

One of my own songs says:

I’d like to meet you

In a timeless, placeless place

Somewhere out of context

And beyond all consequences

I won’t use words again

They don’t mean what I meant

They don’t say what I said

They’re just the crust of the meaning

With realms underneath

Never touched

Never stirred

Never even moved through.

Rumi’s poem says:

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,

There is a field. I’ll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full to talk about.

Ideas, language, even the phrase each other

Doesn’t make any sense.

Sorry for that chunk of text right there, but I want to make sure everyone is credited properly.

So, I sat on the subway staring at the words, wondering — how did that happen? I had never even heard of Rumi, and I thought the resonance of ideas was a remarkable coincidence. I felt vaguely guilty and wondered if I should be paying royalties to someone.

But back to Bob Dylan. Is it part of the “folk process” to lift a few specific metaphors or phrases whole from someone else’s work? I really don’t think it is. Being influenced by a text and reworking it is not the same as directly quoting, which is what he has done here.

Still, Bob Dylan doesn’t have to steal from anybody. Go into any club that still has hoot night, and you will hear someone at the mike stealing from Bob Dylan. His singing and writing style is one of the most influential and recognizable of the last century. And the phrases that he lifted were only details in the scope of this new album.

Did he do this on purpose? I doubt it. Maybe he has a photographic memory, and bits of text stick to it. Maybe it shows how deeply he had immersed himself in the texts and times of the Civil War, and he was completely unconscious of it. These days if a sample of music is taken, you have to acknowledge the original artists and pay them. (See: “Tom’s Diner.”) Shouldn’t the same courtesy be extended to all intellectual property? In other words, is he really “a thieving little swine” as one “fan” puts it?

Well, I guess he is. But I am trying to imagine a Bob Dylan album with footnotes, asterisks, ibid.’s and nifty little anecdotes about the origins of each song. It’s not going to happen. He’s never pretended to be an academic, or even a nice guy. He is more likely to present himself as, well, a thief. Renegade, outlaw, artist. That’s why we are passionate about him.

Edited September 17, 2006 by Aggie87

[JSngry]

Seriously - I love the cat, but he is not without his quirks, all of which I allow him, but only some of which I feel are relevant to the music.

As for the whole "roots" thing, hey - Dylan's never been a rootateer afaic. Going electric was the truest "true" move he ever made. The rest is smoke & mirrors. Especially mirrors, which he uses in equal parts to display/reflect & to hide behind. Nothing "root-y" about that at all, and so what?

My sole criterion for a "good" Dylan album - is there at least one thing on it that makes me bust out laughing because I get the joke and find it funny.

[JSngry]

From the NY Times ...

The Ballad of Henry Timrod

By SUZANNE VEGA

Published: September 17, 2006

I AM passionate about Bob Dylan. As a songwriter, I find there is nothing like singing “It’s Alright Ma (I’m Only Bleeding).” It is nearly eight minutes of cascading images, rich language and the coolest, most unexpected metaphors. My synapses light up in little fireworks, making connections they don’t get to make in ordinary life.

So I read with curiosity about the similarities between some lyrics on his new album and the verses of a forgotten Civil War-era poet. Who is Henry Timrod? Is it true that Mr. Dylan has been borrowing from his poetry? I ran out and bought the CD — not downloading it, because I wanted the lyric booklet. I wanted to see the evidence. And, of course, I discovered that he includes no lyrics in the CD package. No words at all, not even liner notes. Bob isn’t making this easy.

It’s modern to use history as a kind of closet in which we can rummage around, pull influences from different eras, and make them into collages or pastiches. People are doing this with music all the time. I hear it in, say, Christina Aguilera’s new album, or in the music of Sufjan Stevens.

So I had an open mind when approaching this Dylan album — which is called “Modern Times,” by the way. Does this method of working extend to a lyric? To a metaphor? To Bob Dylan’s taking an exact phrase from some guy we never heard of from the middle of the 19th century without crediting him? That’s what I needed to satisfy myself about.

For example, recently I saw a poem on the subway that startled me. It is by the 13th-century Sufi poet Rumi.

One of my own songs says:

I’d like to meet you

In a timeless, placeless place

Somewhere out of context

And beyond all consequences

I won’t use words again

They don’t mean what I meant

They don’t say what I said

They’re just the crust of the meaning

With realms underneath

Never touched

Never stirred

Never even moved through.

Rumi’s poem says:

Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,

There is a field. I’ll meet you there.

When the soul lies down in that grass, the world is too full to talk about.

Ideas, language, even the phrase each other

Doesn’t make any sense.

Sorry for that chunk of text right there, but I want to make sure everyone is credited properly.

So, I sat on the subway staring at the words, wondering — how did that happen? I had never even heard of Rumi, and I thought the resonance of ideas was a remarkable coincidence. I felt vaguely guilty and wondered if I should be paying royalties to someone.

But back to Bob Dylan. Is it part of the “folk process” to lift a few specific metaphors or phrases whole from someone else’s work? I really don’t think it is. Being influenced by a text and reworking it is not the same as directly quoting, which is what he has done here.

Still, Bob Dylan doesn’t have to steal from anybody. Go into any club that still has hoot night, and you will hear someone at the mike stealing from Bob Dylan. His singing and writing style is one of the most influential and recognizable of the last century. And the phrases that he lifted were only details in the scope of this new album.

Did he do this on purpose? I doubt it. Maybe he has a photographic memory, and bits of text stick to it. Maybe it shows how deeply he had immersed himself in the texts and times of the Civil War, and he was completely unconscious of it. These days if a sample of music is taken, you have to acknowledge the original artists and pay them. (See: “Tom’s Diner.”) Shouldn’t the same courtesy be extended to all intellectual property? In other words, is he really “a thieving little swine” as one “fan” puts it?

Well, I guess he is. But I am trying to imagine a Bob Dylan album with footnotes, asterisks, ibid.’s and nifty little anecdotes about the origins of each song. It’s not going to happen. He’s never pretended to be an academic, or even a nice guy. He is more likely to present himself as, well, a thief. Renegade, outlaw, artist. That’s why we are passionate about him.

Still the voice of a generation!

[Chalupa]

Dylan's been "borrowing", "lifting", and "stealing" for over 40 years. Why is everyone getting worked up over just now??? Frankly, I'm more upset that I just spent $15 on a so-so cd.

Much ado about nothing *

[Chalupa]

* Copyright 1598/1599 by William Shakespeare.

[Chuck Nessa]

Still the voice of a generation!

Don't wanna burst any bubbles but I'd say "a fraction of a generation". Numbers can be argued and really don't mean shit.

[rostasi]

That Suicide - Dylan connection makes me wonder about this cover...

...oh, it's not worth it really........unless you're some kind of R 'n' R whiz kid

who collects ephemeral nonsense...

R~~

[JSngry]

Still the voice of a generation!

Don't wanna burst any bubbles but I'd say "a fraction of a generation". Numbers can be argued and really don't mean shit.

Are you being as ironic as I was?

[Chuck Nessa]

Still the voice of a generation!

Don't wanna burst any bubbles but I'd say "a fraction of a generation". Numbers can be argued and really don't mean shit.

Are you being as ironic as I was?

Didn't notice your ironic smiley.

[Alexander]

The thing that bugs me about Clem's attitude here is twofold:

1) Clem seems to think that in matters of taste his word is absolute law. Don't agree with him? Well, that's because you're WRONG. This Dylan album is substandard. Don't think it is? Well, you're WRONG. Clem says it's substandard, and that's what it is. Oh, you think differently, do you? Well, that's because you're a pathetic FANBOY who will forgive anything as long as it comes from one of your favorites. My favorite bit was when Clem claimed that "Modern Times" "sounds better than it is." That's like saying, "this stake tastes better than it really is. Actually, it's a lousy cut and it's been massively overcooked, but because it tastes so good you don't notice how bad it really is." In other words, "You're stupid for liking something you like. Now stop liking it right away."

2) Clem seems to be of the opinion that knowledge is virtue. He knows about something that I don't, therefore he's a better judge of music than I am. I've been listening to music my whole life (going on 36 years now) and I've been listening seriously for more than half of that time. I've amassed a huge collection of music of all kinds (jazz, blues, classical, country, rock, pop, folk, funk, soul, etc). Have I heard everything there is to hear? God, no! Do I know absolutely everything there is to know about music? No way. I'm a student of music (not in the formal sense) and I relish every opportunity to learn. I'm also constantly on the lookout for recommendations of good music I may not have heard or have undervalued. However, I am a knowledgable listener and the path I've taken has given me tremendous insight. Is it the same path Clem has taken? No. And Clem seems to think that because I've taken a different path from him, that my insights cannot be as valid as his own.

As hard as this may be for Clem to accept, I reserve the right to like anything that sounds good to my ears, even if they don't sound good to his. Even if the things I like are (shudder) POPULAR. Yes, in addition to Dylan I also like Eminem. In addition to Donald Fagen I also like Gnarls Barkley. In addition to Sarah Vaughn I also like Christina Aguilera. I listen to the Georgia Pot Lickers AND OutKast. My tastes are my tastes and I absolutely refuse to apologize for them.