Ornette and Richard Rodgers

[Larry Kart]

I'm a bit bemused that only one person, Chalupa, has responded so far to the two posts below, which were on "New Releases," so I'm putting them up here in the hope that someone thinks this is as interesting as I do. Of course, I could be wrong on both counts or either one -- that Ornette is quoting from "If I Loved You" here, and that if he is, this is interesting. But what the hell:

1) Anyone else notice that Ornette's solo on "Turnaround" begins with a quote from "If I Loved You" from Rodgers and Hammerstein's "Carousel" (as opposed, I guess, to somebody else's "Carousel")? It's the opening phrase of the Rodgers' melody, the one that goes with the words "If I loved you/Time and again I would try to say..." I stopped listening to post this, but so far I'd say that Ornette sounds almost overcome by joy (with a twinge of melancholy). His sound is caught nicely, too. And the horn seems to be doing his bidding as much as or even more than ever -- a lovely air of ease and fludity at age 76.

2) Speaking of that Ornette quote from "If I Loved You" at the beginning of his "Turnaround" solo, I just checked out how Hammerstein's lyric continues:

"If I loved you,

Time and again I would try to say

All I'd want you to know.

If I loved you,

Words wouldn't come in an easy way

Round in circles I'd go!"

"Round in circles I'd go" on "Turnaround" -- pretty neat if that's part of what stirred the allusion into being in Ornette's mind. Also IIRC (I don't have a version of "If I Loved You" at hand, so I can't be sure), what's happening musically in the phrase "Round in circles I go" bears a fairly intense, at once circular and somewhat off-center, resemblance to what's happening musically in "All I'd want you to know."

[Larry Kart]

Just to make things clear, I mean Ornette's solo on "Turnaround" on the new "Sound Grammar" album, not his solo on the orginal recording of "Turnaround."

[medjuck]

Ornette is definitly quoting "If I Loved You" (it jumped out at me on first listening) and he could be familiar with the lyrics. I'm not, but then I can't remember the lyrics to anything-- and I was even in Carousel in a high school production nearly 50 years ago.

[gslade]

I just recieved my copy of Sound Grammar

Will give it a spin tonight

[ep1str0phy]

I think it's a terrific catch. Moreover, considering Ornette's penchant for intricate musical formulation, it wouldn't put it past him in the way of remembering and invoking the lyrical content. Maybe it was a subconscious twitch, maybe overt; regardless, I think Ornette's mind--with his music--is working at a terrifically quick and powerful level. It would be interesting to hear and compare other recordings of 'Turnaround' from this tour (and, for that matter, dating back to some 'earlier later performances'--e.g., the original quartet reunion in the 80's)--is this the only time he's done it?

Edited October 1, 2006 by ep1str0phy

[jazzbo]

I can't remember whether OC made that quote when he played "Turnaround" in Austin, but he may have. . . . I'm too far away from my collection to dig up the recording made by someone else of that show I happen to have.

It's likely he intended to quote that fully well aware of the lyrics. . . .

[Late]

[Gheorghe]

Well, I´d say even if Ornette Coleman is not best known for quoting which anyway was part of the improvisation-style of the past (many bop and post-bop greats were great at quoting, Bird, Bud, Diz, Dex, Horace Silver to mention a few), he sure has his roots in the past.

A further example of Ornette quoting something is on a "Caravan of Dreams" album from the 80´s with Prime Time, where he quotes a whole chorus of Parker´s "Au Privave".

Now Ornette Coleman is a real master. Even if some of his contemporaries from the early period thought he doesn´t play the proper way, he sure could and did so (he went as far back as playing "Klactoveesedsteene", a tricky Bird-tune on that great 1958 live date at the Hillcrest-Club in LA).

Anyway, those who started the whole New Thing stuff, they could play anything, at least as good as others who just "kept the flame". It´s hip to play avantgarde if you can afford to do it. But when I was a young person, too many europeans (maybe in other places too) picked up the "free-thing" without knowing nothin´about their axes. It´s "so easy" to get up their doing some "freakish stuff" because the kid didn´t pay the dues, doesn´t know anything ´bout chord progressions and can swing only from a rope :-D.... That´s what happened then, and it must be said once. But....Ornette and many other genius musicians, they really started a musical revolution and they had the means to do it and from where to start.

[medjuck]

He seems to have quoted "If I Loved You" on many recordings of Turnaround, including the earliest ones.

[ep1str0phy]

Damn it, Late. I thought it was going to be another one of those St. Sanders videos.

A tip to "Well You Needn't" in the "Chronology" solo, if I remember correctly--not an exact quote, but rhythmically similar.

Of course Ornette's music isn't as threatening now as it was, but listening to the Brown/Roach Quintet a lot recently--which itself sounds like the fire breathing of its time--and then spinning This Is Our Music for the first time in ages, my mind was blown anew. The two things I initially noticed were (1) this is the most complete pianoless quartet music I've ever heard and (2) you can't get people to just play this stuff--it's very tonally astute. Charlie Haden had ears of gold.

[ep1str0phy]

And "Broadway Blues" sounds like sort of a paraphrase of "Sandu".

[Niko]

Damn it, Late. I thought it was going to be another one of those St. Sanders videos.

A tip to "Well You Needn't" in the "Chronology" solo, if I remember correctly--not an exact quote, but rhythmically similar.

Of course Ornette's music isn't as threatening now as it was, but listening to the Brown/Roach Quintet a lot recently--which itself sounds like the fire breathing of its time--and then spinning This Is Our Music for the first time in ages, my mind was blown anew. The two things I initially noticed were (1) this is the most complete pianoless quartet music I've ever heard and (2) you can't get people to just play this stuff--it's very tonally astute. Charlie Haden had ears of gold.

funny, listened to something else!!!! and then to the shape of jazz to come today (also for the first time in quite a while, think i'm still in my first 10 hours of listening to coleman...) and found the jump ahead (not only but certainly a good deal due to haden) astonishing... can't promise i would recognize something else!!! as "free jazz" when i heard it on the radio...