seeline Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 (edited) Allen, while I hear you on that, I'm also thinking that some of it could have come from side effects from psychotropic drugs. Tom Harrell has been dealing with that for many years now. And there wasn't much around in Monk's time - at least, the drugs that were commonly used at that time have very intense side effects, compared to some of the newer antipsychotics, SSRIs, etc. Regardless, he had his way of dealing with the world. . . and succeeded in time despite the inflexibility that could plague him. And because he resisted certain practices and behavior on the part of others, he was able to do so often on his terms, and there's real value in that. Agreed! Edited October 19, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 it's all pretty subjective, and you're right, I'm diagnosing from quite a distance. and I realize it's hard to relate my own experiences to the larger picture of Monk - it's just that, having spent a lot of time with people with this condition, it's just one of those things - I just look at him moving around (as in the film Straight No Chaser) and I remember seeing him close up (a weird evening at Bradleys about 35 years ago) and it's just uncannily in certain of its parameters like my son and some of his friends - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 (edited) Again, while I appreciate what you're saying, there's no way any of us can be sure of what was actually occurring, or why.... Diagnosing from a distance seems to be an armchair sport for some people in the mental health profession, with famous musicians, artists, etc. who've been dead for centuries. I guess I find myself getting impatient with that, especially when pronouncements are made with certainty. (Kay Redfield Jamison and Freud both come to mind.) There are just far too many variables that we have no way of knowing about, and I think we often read into people's lives in ways that say more about us than about the person (or people) we're retro-analyzing. Edited October 19, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Again, while I appreciate what you're saying, there's no way any of us can be sure of what was actually occurring, or why.... Diagnosing from a distance seems to be an armchair sport for some people in the mental health profession, with famous musicians, artists, etc. who've been dead for centuries. I guess I find myself getting impatient with that, especially when pronouncements are made with certainty. (Kay Redfield Jamison and Freud both come to mind.) There are just far too many variables that we have no way of knowing about, and I think we often read into people's lives in ways that say more about us than about the person (or people) we're retro-analyzing. Projecting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Or maybe it's fairer to say wrong assumptions...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Or maybe it's fairer to say wrong assumptions...? at least speculating! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 I think "speculating" is valid, but definitive posthumous diagnoses (a la Kay Jamison and Freud) are another thing altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted October 19, 2009 Report Share Posted October 19, 2009 Sounds reasonable. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umum_cypher Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) will relate a Dick Katz story - when Hall Overton was preparing the arrangements for the Town Hall concert, Dick got the assignment to ferry music back and forth between where Overton was rehearsing the band and Monk's apartment - this all happened over an 8 hour period and Dick reported that the whole time Monk was working on the same song, every time Dick arrived - amazing perseveration, though a common symptom of various disorders, though sometimes such things work to a musician's advantage - If you get the Monk practice tape released as The Transformer on Explore a couple of years ago, you can persevere along with him. Aebersold it ain't. Edited October 20, 2009 by umum_cypher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 Perseverate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 well, unless they have telepathic powers, anyone is speculating, even in the presence of the subject. But I have no need to project, this is just recognition of a relatively common syndrome. Also, ask Peter Muir, a musicologist and psychologist who works with Aspergers/autism patients, who agrees with me on this. on the other hand, I do get the impression that Monk was over-medicated, which complicates things immensely. These diagnoses were not made much in those days; another problem is self-medication, as people with these conditions are often insomniacs with a tendency to be over-tired - leading to certain kinds of substance issues. unless he was schizophrenic - which would make it Music Plus One Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaro Vega Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) The author here does a great job of expanding the community Monk came out of, especially the chapters on his early musical life and the world of Minton's. Been reading all the footnotes along the way, too, and see a need to pick up Alyn Shipton's Dizzy book. That Monk is central to bebop, and not a side story of an independant composer/pianist/bandleader who happned to be juxtaposed in time with them is an elightening perspective. Edited October 20, 2009 by Lazaro Vega Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) on the other hand, I do get the impression that Monk was over-medicated, which complicates things immensely. These diagnoses were not made much in those days; another problem is self-medication, as people with these conditions are often insomniacs with a tendency to be over-tired - leading to certain kinds of substance issues. Which is part of what I was alluding to earlier. And the side effects of the antipsychotic drugs used at that time were very extreme - often causing permanent neurological damage. I have seen that personally. So yeah, I'm going from my own observations as well. Either way, it's still largely guesswork. Your mention of Lester Young wearing bedroom slippers to a session could be "about" any number of things, from what you suggested to foot pain to him simply feeling more comfortable in slippers and not caring if anyone thought it was odd to... [ad infinitum]. We'll never know for certain. Edited October 20, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) "Your mention of Lester Young wearing bedroom slippers to a session could be "about" any number of things, from what you suggested to foot pain to him feeling more comfortable in slippers and not caring if anyone thought it was odd to... " well, yes and no - because it becomes part of an evidentary trail - so, if you have a particular condition, and a person who exhibits many of the other traits (social, artistic) of that condition; AND than he exhibits other traits of that condition (in this case possible sensory defensiveness) - thank it becomes a lot more than just a wild shot in the dark, but rather of assembling logical bits and pieces. And I will tell you, all accounts of Young that I have (including very detailed personal stuff from one of his pianists, Bill Triglia) point to his having some kind of Aspergers/PDD - it's like the arguments about musical sources and Africa - someone points out that call in response exists not only in African music but it English music - but THAN - we see a large population who come out of Africa - well, than one has to use certain logic. Coincidence can only take us so far - and talk to Peter Muir, who sees patients like this every day. Also, talk to people who knew Bud Powell. It's just too obvious to ignore. Edited October 20, 2009 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) Fine, and I really don't want to argue these points, but my personal feeling is that it's very easy to read too much into details and come out with conclusions that sound good but aren't necessarily watertight. (cf. my mentions of Kay Redfield Jamison and Freud above, re. their posthumous "analyses" of various artists and composers.) The thing is, none of us are Sherlock Holmes, and his reasoning only works so completely because Arthur Conan Doyle planned it that way. (Part of the reason that I'm saying this is that I'm very familiar with the methodology involved in both art history and music history.) All history is (imo) largely guesswork. We have artifacts - whether it's the Sutton Hoo ship burial hoard, Michelangelo's "Moses," some rare 78s by "obscure" blues singers, manuscript copies of maps or literary works, or kinescopes of "What's My Line?" (And whatever written records of a person's life might exist.) The rest is largely extrapolation, synthesis, and - like it or not - guesswork. And no matter how "right" one single pov/pronouncement might be, it's rarely the only valid one. (imo.) Edited October 20, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaro Vega Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 I thought Pres had syphilis.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) and talk to Peter Muir, who sees patients like this every day I don't need to, if only because I've spent a fair amount of time with kids and adults who are at various points on the autism spectrum myself. (Though I'm sure it would be an interesting conversation!) You're preaching to the choir, Allen. I've essentially been agreeing with you, while positing other "what ifs," because I honestly think they're valid questions and ideas... Edited October 20, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 hope I'm not getting too huffy - I'm just not used to someone disagreeing with me around here without telling me I'm crazy or evil. Of course, when it comes to PDD I've been told I only need to look in the mirror - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) Well, back to square one, which is that we'd need all of these people (Bud, Monk, Lester, etc.) here, and alive, and we'd need a battery of docs and therapists to examine them and make decisions on what is/isn't happening with them physically and emotionally before we could come to any halfway absolute diagnoses. (Not wanting to imply that diagnosis is a science, or that it's ever terribly absolute, either.) So many things that appear to be solely psychological in nature can actually be indicative of serious organic/medical problems, just for starters... Which is one thing that burns me about Kay Jamison declaring that X, Y and Z were bipolar. Edited October 20, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 whatever the cause, Lester definitley resided in the land of gone-zo. Triglia told me that they had a tour they went to by plane - Prez had hired a bass player he liked very much, but the base player sent a sub - they all met at the airport, got on the plane, the whole time Prez didn't seem to notice the bass player was a different guy - hours later they went to the first gig and started to play - Prez hears the bass, turns around and says, "hey, you're not the guy I hired." interesting, first, as a funny story - BUT - and this is also interesting to me - people with this condition have a lot of trouble remembering faces, in recognizing people on sight. And Prez had spent a whole day with this guy... just a possibility, I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeline Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) Yes, but we still don't know for certain what, exactly, was going on with him. Enough of this; we're going around in circles and will never be able to nail anything conclusively. As for the slippers, hey - I have serious problems getting a proper fit in most dress shoes (and many casual shoes) because of the way they're made. It hurts to wear them, and I end up with bruises and blisters if I keep them on for too long. I really need custom lasts, and a shoemaker - which is all unbelievably costly. Since I can't afford that, I compromise by kicking my shoes off whenever possible. I can absolutely see why someone might wear slippers in seemingly "inappropriate" settings, if only because I'd love to be able to pull that off every single day! (Not joking here at all.) I rest my case. Edited October 20, 2009 by seeline Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaro Vega Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 So has anyone heard this piece "Meet Dr. Christian" that Mary Lou Williams and Monk both copped from? (Walkin' and Swingin' and Rhythm-a-ning). Sounds like he has access to something completely unavailable (page 74). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 (edited) yes, Lester was an alcoholic, but to continue the circle (see Seeline, above) this wasn't a blackout situation - and his "spaciness" wasn't an alcoholic condition but his personality. And he knew the rest of the band (because they were more familiar to him as his regular band) - more than anything else, with these guys, is the SOCIAL stuff, which fits the condition like a glove. and lets face it, all jazz musicians are weirdos - Edited October 20, 2009 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 I bought the book yesterday, but my wife copped it to give to me as a birthday present - "you're the hardest person to buy a present for" - so I won't be able to read it for a few weeks. In the meantime, I'll listen to Monk's music and leave the behavior analyses to others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted October 20, 2009 Report Share Posted October 20, 2009 in that case, why read the book? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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