Big Al Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 So I got tired of posting about this album on the Keepnews thread. This album deserves a thread all its own. Let it be known, first, that I am not the biggest Joe fan in the world. I like him; a lot. But I can only take him in concentrated doses; I hardly have any Joe Henderson recordings. In fact, the only other Joe album I own is MODE FOR JOE. I don't own any of the legendary albums he recorded with Kenny Dorham, although I did own every one of them at one time. Fact is, I prefer Joe as a sideman than as a leader. Hence, the concentrated doses. But what doses they can be. A quick sample of some of my favorite Joe moments: His solo on the title track of Idle Moments (this was the solo that convinced me to stop complaining about him and start looking into his work; damn near steals the show on this whole album) His solo on "Song for My Father" I also highly respect all of his work with Andrew Hill, though I rarely listen to it. Though it ain't always my cup o' tea, it makes sense in a parallel-universe-if-I-enjoyed-this-as-much-as-I-appreciate-it vein. And finally, his playing with Freddie Hubbard on Red Clay and Straight Life are nothing short of mind-blowing. For the longest time, I always thought these were Joe's shining moments. That is, until I heard POWER TO THE PEOPLE. First, it sounds like it could be a close cousin to the aforementioned Hubbard titles (the presence of Herbie Hancock, Ron Carter, and Jack DeJohnette certainly helps). Heck, with that lineup, this album has all the earmarks of a great CTI record; I even file this next to Hubbard's CTI albums. Which leads me to the trumpet player on this album, Mike Lawrence. I don't know much about him, but a quick AMG search reveals he spent a lot of time with Bob James, FWIW. IMO, he does a fantastic job of establishing his own voice, when it would've been so easy to be another Freddie clone. Every song is a highlight for me, but I really enjoy his remake of "Lazy Afternoon," which IMHO smokes the version on Basra. And the improvisation that ends the album is quite a funky little pianoless trio stomper, that actually had my feet tapping while I was first listening to it. Easily my favorite Joe Henderson album, easily my favorite Joe Henderson moments. I can listen to this nonstop without ever getting tired of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 Now here's an unavoidable AOTW thread ......... If I compare it to the Hubbard CTIs, I don't find them so similar - different sound (I can't separate the CTIs from RVGs 1970's sound), and a less soul groove oriented context. I see some of those early Milestones more as a continuation or developped from Keepnews' Riverside production concept with some virtues of late 1960's Blue Note thrown in. It's nice to see how these early Milestone Henderson LPs were kind of overlooked at the time - I haerd them on AFN Europe's jazz broadcasts but they were imported only years later. Henderson toured frequently in Europe, I saw him live several times, and his reputation was probably bigger here than in the USA. Old story ... Back then Joe's approach to post-Coltrane tenor sax was fresh and just liberated from the Blue Note blueprints - I liked it a lot, it was open and flexible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 Forgot to say: With that rhythm section there has to be more of a Milesian influence than on Hubbard's CTIs. It's one of many albums with Miles sidemen that planted the seed of that approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K1969 Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 I hardly have any Joe Henderson recordings. In fact, the only other Joe album I own is MODE FOR JOE. .....this album has all the earmarks of a great CTI record; I even file this next to Hubbard's CTI albums. Have you heard Inner Urge from 1964? Rather than a CTI LP I tend to think of PTTP as an updated return to the style of that previous blue note LP (my favourite of all Joes) If you haven't I suggest you check it out cos those who like PTTP tend to love Inner Urge - particularly the title track and El Barrio. I've always felt that Joe was best in a smaller, freer contexts, quartet or quintet maximum, with the minimum of arrangements and a lot so time to stretch out. This is why I particularly like Inner Urge. El Barrio itself is just a spontaneous improvisation on a simple two chord theme. It just takes off and never comes down. Which leads me to the trumpet player on this album, Mike Lawrence. I don't know much about him, but a quick AMG search reveals he spent a lot of time with Bob James, FWIW. IMO, he does a fantastic job of establishing his own voice, when it would've been so easy to be another Freddie clone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donald petersen Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 yeah i am not agreeing with this CTI thing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceH Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 I've been meaning to get this album for some time. This may be the extra bump I need... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 This album's sound and style is somewhat reminiscent of Filles de Kilimanjaro. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 I got this one very recently from eMusic, and I also feel it sounds like a Blue Note Joe Henderson recording. A very strong album, I like it better than Multiple or The Elements and even The Kicker and Tetragon. For my tastes, Joe has never disappointed me on any album I've heard him on, leader or sideman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 I've been wondering whether to get this. I like a lot of Milestone Henderson - and BN - but never got this one. I suspect it was the dull cover. Putting it a bit higher on the list now. Ta. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 Did Elvin Campbell engineer this one? He did real well w/electric pianos, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K1969 Posted June 10, 2007 Report Share Posted June 10, 2007 Did Elvin Campbell engineer this one? He did real well w/electric pianos, I think. liner notes say it was engineered by George Sawtelle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest donald petersen Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 mg-you avoided it because of the cover??? weird. and noj-i think CW is that the kicker and i guess even tetragon (which is pretty decent, i think) are just "ok" so i don't think it should be a surprise if you find PTTP to be a better album. the kicker isn't even in the top 10. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy Berger Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 mg-you avoided it because of the cover??? weird. and noj-i think CW is that the kicker and i guess even tetragon (which is pretty decent, i think) are just "ok" so i don't think it should be a surprise if you find PTTP to be a better album. the kicker isn't even in the top 10. It might not even be in the top 10 Joe Henderson recordings from 1967. Guy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted June 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 Have you heard Inner Urge from 1964? Yup, as well as The Real McCoy. Didn't care for either of them because: a) As I said before, I can only take Joe in concentrated doses, which also means I'm not a fan of any of his quartet settings; b) I don't particularly care for any of McCoy's work outside of the Coltrane quartet. I guess that could be the subject of another thread, but there have been SO MANY albums where McCoy was the pianist, and I ended up not enjoying the LP. Believe me, it is nothing I'm proud of; I have tried to enjoy McCoy's playing on so many BN (and other labels) albums, with little or no success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted June 11, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 This album's sound and style is somewhat reminiscent of Filles de Kilimanjaro. Guy I can see where you, Mike, and Donald are coming from, and I don't totally disagree. But I still feel a more closer connection to the CTI albums he appeared on. Different strokes, y'know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted June 11, 2007 Report Share Posted June 11, 2007 mg-you avoided it because of the cover??? weird. No - I didn't AVOID it. Joe is not Lou Donaldson or Grant Green - musicians whose albums I buy automatically, whenever I get an opportunity. So there has to be something about an album of his to positively attract me, without actually hearing it, because I hardly ever listen to music before buying it. I have to get a vibe off an album, possibly from the personnel, the tunes or the cover. A dull cover removes one possibility for enthusing me. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Al, just so you know that you're not alone...I also prefer Joe as a sideman to his leader dates. I've never really been able to put my finger on WHY that is, I mean I positively LOVE the guy on other people's dates, but his own albums rarely "do it" for me. Our Thing is a major exception to that. Some of my favorite Henderson solos are on Duke Pearson's Wahoo...especially Amanda & Bedouin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Now that I've listened to it once again I get Al's point about the nearness to the Hubbard CTIs - but I also hear big differences: 1) the sound (none of RVG's overly big room ambience and booming bass - this here sounds a lot more natural and the Fender Rhodes piano clear and direct. 2) the playing concept is less fusion/funky and more jazzy - Creed taylor wouldn't have allowed so many standards and acoustic piano. In spite of Hancock, Carter, and DeJohnette being on so many CTIs they seem to play in a much more open fashion, without falling into late 1960's Miles quintet clichés. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted June 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 Now that I've listened to it once again I get Al's point about the nearness to the Hubbard CTIs - but I also hear big differences: 1) the sound (none of RVG's overly big room ambience and booming bass - this here sounds a lot more natural and the Fender Rhodes piano clear and direct. 2) the playing concept is less fusion/funky and more jazzy - Creed taylor wouldn't have allowed so many standards and acoustic piano. In spite of Hancock, Carter, and DeJohnette being on so many CTIs they seem to play in a much more open fashion, without falling into late 1960's Miles quintet clichés. Now THAT I can totally agree with! But I also hear some serious funk in what Joe & the band are playing, too! And Shawn, as long as you have The Goddess as your avatar, we're gonna agree on just about everything! Seriously, though, I can put my finger on why I prefer Joe as a sideman, and I think it's the thing that endears him to his biggest fans: he pushes the envelope with his solos too far for my own tastes. I can take it in concentrated doses, but rarely for an entire album. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted June 12, 2007 Report Share Posted June 12, 2007 and noj-i think CW is that the kicker and i guess even tetragon (which is pretty decent, i think) are just "ok" so i don't think it should be a surprise if you find PTTP to be a better album. the kicker isn't even in the top 10. CW? Cedar Walton? I should have noted I was comparing PTTP to "non-BN Joe H albums in Noj's sad little collection." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Seriously, though, I can put my finger on why I prefer Joe as a sideman, and I think it's the thing that endears him to his biggest fans: he pushes the envelope with his solos too far for my own tastes. I can take it in concentrated doses, but rarely for an entire album. As I said I saw him quite often before his last recording period for Verve. It became predictable after a while, same tunes, similar verrrrry long solos ..... What I liked about Keepnews producing Henderson was that he kept pushing him in all kinds of directions he never would have taken by himself - the results were always interesting, and sometimes great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted June 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Seriously, though, I can put my finger on why I prefer Joe as a sideman, and I think it's the thing that endears him to his biggest fans: he pushes the envelope with his solos too far for my own tastes. I can take it in concentrated doses, but rarely for an entire album. As I said I saw him quite often before his last recording period for Verve. It became predictable after a while, same tunes, similar verrrrry long solos ..... What I liked about Keepnews producing Henderson was that he kept pushing him in all kinds of directions he never would have taken by himself - the results were always interesting, and sometimes great. Oh, I wish you hadn't said that..... now I'm gonna want to find the whole Milestone box! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted June 13, 2007 Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 Oh, I wish you hadn't said that..... now I'm gonna want to find the whole Milestone box! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted June 13, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2007 and noj-i think CW is that the kicker and i guess even tetragon (which is pretty decent, i think) are just "ok" so i don't think it should be a surprise if you find PTTP to be a better album. the kicker isn't even in the top 10. CW? Cedar Walton? Conventional wisdom. He played on some obscure Hat releases. Oh wait.... aren't they all obscure? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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