PayPal Dispute

[trane_fanatic]

I am keeping my fingers crossed. A little over 2 months ago, I bought an item over eBay using a MasterCard funded PayPal account. Despite multiple times corresponding with the seller (who had a 99.9% rating) and promises & excuses from him to get the item out after him saying that the first shipment got lost in the mail, the bottom line is that I still have not gotten the package yet. I was so bamboozled corresponding w/him that I forgot you only have 60 days to file a formal dispute through PayPal. Just today, I filed a chargeback dispute via my credit card company (their limit is 90 days). I am not outta $107 (the amount of my purchase) if I didn't do a formal dispute through PP, right? Sometimes, I have too much of a trusting nature. LOL!

Edited November 5, 2007 by trane_fanatic

[Dave Garrett]

I am not outta $107 (the amount of my purchase) if I didn't do a formal dispute through PP, right?

No, but you might be out your PayPal account. PayPal really doesn't like chargebacks. But last I remember, they usually wouldn't yank your account the first time you filed a chargeback through your CC company. More than that, and you're probably on thin ice.

[trane_fanatic]

I am not outta $107 (the amount of my purchase) if I didn't do a formal dispute through PP, right?

No, but you might be out your PayPal account. PayPal really doesn't like chargebacks. But last I remember, they usually wouldn't yank your account the first time you filed a chargeback through your CC company. More than that, and you're probably on thin ice.

Thanks Dave!

[Dan Gould]

The problem is that a charge-back takes money out of Paypal's coffers. Unless they know the reason why you did the chargeback, they can't go after the seller, and by their own policies, they aren't supposed to investigate or mediate the dispute after sixty days.

BTW, and you've probably realized this, the seller probably already sold the item, and since he couldn't send to you what he doesn't have, simply used excuses to "run out the clock".

[T.D.]

Interesting. Is PayPal's dispute procedure trustworthy? I know (from experience) that my credit card company's chargeback process is. Once read the details of PayPal's "buyer protection" language, and thought it was bullshit. I've never had a problem with a PayPal transaction, but always assumed I'd go the chargeback route if one arose (that's why I use PayPal w. credit card on eBay). Better go back and read more fine print...

[AllenLowe]

I've gotten money back from paypal on three occassions after filing a dispute -

[Kevin Bresnahan]

If I ever have another PayPal dispute, I'm going the credit card charge back route. If they pull my PayPal account, so be it. Their dispute process is excruciating and requires multiple telephone calls & e-mails. Every time they rule in your favor, the seller simply has to contest their ruling and they re-open the process. I had a fraudulent seller re-open a complaint 3 times before I finally got PayPal to refund my money. It took well over 60 days to go through the process. It's like the try to wear you down.

The worst was when eBay than let the seller zing me with a negative for following their own (PayPal is owned by eBay) formal process. Next time, I'm going with a CC credit.

Edited November 6, 2007 by Kevin Bresnahan

[Morganized]

If I ever have another PayPal dispute, I'm going the credit card charge back route. If they pull my PayPal account, so be it. Their dispute process is excruciating and requires multiple telephone calls & e-mails. Every time they rule in your favor, the seller simply has to contest their ruling and they re-open the process. I had a fraudulent seller re-open a complaint 3 times before I finally got PayPal to refund my money. It took well over 60 days to go through the process. It's like the try to wear you down.

The worst was when eBay than let the seller zing me with a negative for following their own (PayPal is owned by eBay) formal process. Next time, I'm going with a CC credit.

Interesting observation. I have begun the Paypal dispute process. It is tedious to some degree but in my case it did bear results. I received the item, albeit, after a considerable length of time and with more effort than should have been necessary. In my case it did not get to the point where the Seller contested the disputed matter because my complaint was for non shipment. Seller, I think, just did not like the price he/she received. Hoped I would just go away. The matter settled before EBAY was forced to rule.

It has been my experience that EBAY is very protective of its Sellers. It is tilted IMHO in favor of the people most in control of the situation. Buyer is relying upon the Seller's description of the product and competence to ship timely. If Buyer returns items it should be noted only. Sellers would then know which Buyers to be concerned about. No Seller should be allowed to zing a Buyer for following the dispute process. More importantly, damages should not be limited to the purchase price but, instead, should be the replacement price. That would ensure that Sellers take the time to make sure advertised items are actually available and in the condition advertised.IMHO

[Man with the Golden Arm]

I had a guy file an un-received item PP dispute AND he got his money back - PayPal sucked it right outta my account - a good week after he posted postive feedback about the item he "received".

I had to go round and round w/ PayPal with the buyer as my witness to get the transaction overturned. Finally had to call and give the analyst a link to the feedback forum for him to give me that "one time complimentary credit".

Bastards gotcha by the shorthairs, they do.

[Morganized]

I had a guy file an un-received item PP dispute AND he got his money back - PayPal sucked it right outta my account - a good week after he posted postive feedback about the item he "received".

I had to go round and round w/ PayPal with the buyer as my witness to get the transaction overturned. Finally had to call and give the analyst a link to the feedback forum for him to give me that "one time complimentary credit".

Bastards gotcha by the shorthairs, they do.

Always two sides to the story!

On this we can all agree.

Bastards gotcha by the shorthairs, they do.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

I had a guy file an un-received item PP dispute AND he got his money back - PayPal sucked it right outta my account - a good week after he posted postive feedback about the item he "received".

I had to go round and round w/ PayPal with the buyer as my witness to get the transaction overturned. Finally had to call and give the analyst a link to the feedback forum for him to give me that "one time complimentary credit".

Always two sides to the story!

On this we can all agree.

Bastards gotcha by the shorthairs, they do.

wackorolleyesganized.

I thought I presented BOTH sides here but was not so succinct I gather. Our wonderfully slow postal service took do time with the package and surprise I was hit with a refund. Thing is that he left feedbback about how great whatever it was was plenty of time before the dispute closed and I had to pull him into the debate with PayPal so he could then vouch for me. He made out the best with the product AND the money he paid for it.

[Morganized]

I had a guy file an un-received item PP dispute AND he got his money back - PayPal sucked it right outta my account - a good week after he posted postive feedback about the item he "received".

I had to go round and round w/ PayPal with the buyer as my witness to get the transaction overturned. Finally had to call and give the analyst a link to the feedback forum for him to give me that "one time complimentary credit".

Always two sides to the story!

On this we can all agree.

Bastards gotcha by the shorthairs, they do.

wackorolleyesganized.

I thought I presented BOTH sides here but was not so succinct I gather. Our wonderfully slow postal service took do time with the package and surprise I was hit with a refund. Thing is that he left feedbback about how great whatever it was was plenty of time before the dispute closed and I had to pull him into the debate with PayPal so he could then vouch for me. He made out the best with the product AND the money he paid for it.

MWGA,

I think you misinterpreted my post. I was acknowledging your post as "the other side of the story" in response to my post. I was not suggesting that there was another side to your unfortunate experience. Both Sellers and Buyers have EBAY horror stories.

[Man with the Golden Arm]

pheww. sorry, must be that PayPal sucking my seratonin again.

[Jazzmoose]

The worst was when eBay than let the seller zing me with a negative for following their own (PayPal is owned by eBay) formal process.

Well, to be fair, that's the way the feedback process works. Both sides get their say, and unfortunately, it doesn't matter how much bullshit is involved. While there are a few limits on what you can say, "truth" is not on the list of qualifiers...

[Kevin Bresnahan]

The worst was when eBay than let the seller zing me with a negative for following their own (PayPal is owned by eBay) formal process.

Well, to be fair, that's the way the feedback process works. Both sides get their say, and unfortunately, it doesn't matter how much bullshit is involved. While there are a few limits on what you can say, "truth" is not on the list of qualifiers...

Oh really. So tell me what I did wrong to deserve a negative. I bid on the item. I won the auction. I paid immediately by PayPal. I did everything I needed to do. My end of the deal was done. What did I do wrong?

Now, on the seller's side of this, he listed a CD as "CD and artwork near mint" and sent me a CD with a booklet that appeared to have been stuffed in the case numerous times at the wrong angle to the point where the whole cover was about to fall off *and* there was a large tear in it. I asked him for a refund and he told me "all sales are final". I had to file a claim with PayPal, who ruled in my favor and I got my refund. He filed a "Non paying bidder strike" which was rescinded by eBay. He went to his local police station, who I called to explain the situation and they told me if he came in again, they would let me know so that I could consider filing a harassment charge.

So who was wrong here? Should this seller be able to put a black mark on my record? For what?

I do not deserve a negative for returning that item for a refund and PayPal agreed. However, eBay said, "We never remove unwarranted feedback". They claim that there would be legal ramifications if they did. No, their sellers would be pissed is why.

EBay protects the sellers. It's all about the money.

Later,

Kevin

Edited November 7, 2007 by Kevin Bresnahan

[Daniel A]

I think Jazzmoose rather meant that truth≠eBay feedback. I'm not defending the system which has its obvious flaws, but it will sometimes turn against sellers as well. There are unreasonable/clueless bidders who leave bad feedback for reasons like "I didn't like the film". EBay will neither remove that feedback (though of course the sellers will punish the bidders by leaving bad feedback in return).

[Jazzmoose]

Exactly. Kevin, you didn't get what you deserved, you got what the seller wanted to give you. That is the way feedback is set up. EBay's reasoning is exactly what they said it was. If they were to get into the evaluation of feedback, they would lose their "we're just the marketplace, not the seller" defense against a host of issues. It has nothing to do with favoring the sellers over the buyers.

By the way, as Daniel says, sellers are victimized by bullshit feedback as well. It hasn't happened to me, but I've seen it happen to others.

By far the silliest negatives I've seen are the ones with the comments: Seller didn't give me feedback. Of course, those usually result in the seller giving feedback quite promptly, so I guess they are self correcting...

Edited November 7, 2007 by Jazzmoose

[trane_fanatic]

Thanks for the input guys! Haven't heard back from my CC company yet... but whoever the seller is ignored my final 2 e-mails and also left their feedback private. Over the past few weeks, his rating went down from 99.9% to 85%. So I guess I'm not the only one who has had to deal with the guy's sudden dissapearing act. His profile is below.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...0All%20Feedback

Edited November 7, 2007 by trane_fanatic

[Dan Gould]

Thanks for the input guys! Haven't heard back from my CC company yet... but whoever the seller is ignored my final 2 e-mails and also left their feedback private. Over the past few weeks, his rating went down from 99.9% to 85%. So I guess I'm not the only one who has had to deal with the guy's sudden dissapearing act. His profile is below.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...0All%20Feedback

Woops - not only has his rating gone down, but he's not a registered user anymore, either.

What does it take to be an unregistered user? Did they suspend his account or is he quitting it, because his feedback went downhill so fast?

[trane_fanatic]

Thanks for the input guys! Haven't heard back from my CC company yet... but whoever the seller is ignored my final 2 e-mails and also left their feedback private. Over the past few weeks, his rating went down from 99.9% to 85%. So I guess I'm not the only one who has had to deal with the guy's sudden dissapearing act. His profile is below.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...0All%20Feedback

Woops - not only has his rating gone down, but he's not a registered user anymore, either.

What does it take to be an unregistered user? Did they suspend his account or is he quitting it, because his feedback went downhill so fast?

Wow, the suspension must have just happened this morning. It's all going to hell... LOL!

[Jazzmoose]

What does it take to be an unregistered user? Did they suspend his account or is he quitting it, because his feedback went downhill so fast?

Neither. Unless his overall feedback rating went to -4, it means enough people filed on him for nondelivery to actually get eBay to sit up and take notice. Damn good thing you went the CC route, trane_fanatic; I have a bad feeling you'd have been screwed all around with any other approach!

[Kevin Bresnahan]

Uh oh - that account was probably hijacked. Some seller fell for a phishing E-mail and gave some scammers his eBay password. I hope your credit card chargeback went through. There's no way you'd get your money back from Paypal in a situation like this.

[Dan Gould]

Uh oh - that account was probably hijacked. Some seller fell for a phishing E-mail and gave some scammers his eBay password. I hope your credit card chargeback went through. There's no way you'd get your money back from Paypal in a situation like this.

Is there something in particular that makes you think that, Kevin? I'd believe it if the guy started selling a completely different type of merchandise, or if his messages to sellers went from average US literacy level to something much lower, but it seems equally likely that for whatever reason, he stopped holding up his end of things.

[Kevin Bresnahan]

In the past, when "good sellers" suddenly and quickly become bad sellers without any correspondences, I always expect that it's a hijacked account. Especially given the lack of contact. Most good sellers will at least contact you if they're having trouble getting your item out. Crooks will not.

[trane_fanatic]

OK, now I just got this message in my e-mail. Hmm... now I'm really confused. This is a guy who said he sent my item out two months ago, claims he bought insurance yet didn't have a tracking number when I told him abut the non-receipt, then said he was sending out another one and subsequently dissapeared for a whole month until now. Is his account hacked or what?

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Edited November 8, 2007 by trane_fanatic