wesbed Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Ok. So, I’ll succumb to admitting to a little bit of ignorance to ask this question. Facts, opinions and observations are welcome. Styles of music come and go through time. No musical style I can think of starts on it’s own, in a vacuum. It evolves slowly till a new music style begins or an old music style ends. I’ve read that Blakey’s Night at Birdland sessions (recorded in 1954) are recognized as being the start of bebop. But, what made Blakey’s 1954 sessions different from certain other sessions that preceded it? For example, Monk’s sessions from the late 1940s and early 1950s (Genius of Modern Music) seem very bebop-ish to me. Also, Horace Silver’s Trio (and non trio) sessions and Bud Powell’s early Blue Note sessions come to mind. Again, why does the Night at Birdland session get the ‘start of bebop’ label offered to it while earlier, comparable sessions do not? What makes Night at Birdland different and/or unique? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesbed Posted September 14, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 (edited) Wesbed, are you sure you didn't read that ANABirdland was the beginning of "hard bop?" Ghost: You make a good point. I could be mixing the terms hardbop and bebop. I'll have to investigate. Thanks for the heads-up. On this same line of thought, then, what makes Night at Birdland hardbop while Monks' Genius sessions are bebop? What about Bird & Dizzy who also predated the Night at Birdland sessions? Where do they fit in? Hardbop, bebop, other? Edited September 14, 2003 by wesbed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceH Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Agreed. Trying to nail things down (which is a strong human tendancy) will often throw a lot of light on a subject. BTW, I've often heard/read the Blakey Birdlands referred to as the birth of Hardbop as well. Now Bird & Dizzy, that's bebop. (Birth of same, see "Minton's Playhouse.") Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 I'm pretty sure we had an interesting discussion about this fairly recently. Personally I have always thought that "Horace Silver and the Jazz Messengers" was as good a moment as any to pinpoint, due to the presence of gospel-influenced tunes like "The Preacher," plus the presence of younger folks like Mobley who would be such a critical part of the hardbop era. On the other hand, I tend to think of LD and Brownie as being more of the bop era than the subsequent hard bop era (not that LD didn't adjust with the times, but I always thought of Lee Morgan as the hardbop extension of Clifford Brown. But maybe that's just because Clifford died so young.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John L Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Bird's quartets with Hank Jones or Al Haig and Max Roach were recorded in 1952 and 1953. If that doesn't satisfy the definition of "hard bop," then why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 GoM: yes, that Powell date with Navarro & Rollins has a sound, a cohesion and style of playing, which somehow seems (hate that term, but...) ahead of their time. Then concerning Blakey: I'd also rather take the Silver Messengers (or the live at the Bohemia stuff from the same unit) as starting point of Hard bop. Then there would be the Miles dates with Silver (the third Blue Note date, Walkin', the Rollins-part of Bags' Groove) which are from about the same time (all 1954). ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 "Conventional wisdom" often points to Miles' "Walkin'" date as the birth of hard bop. Whatever... I think it was a NYC thing myself, the junkies cleeaned up (or got themselves better organized anyway), and some truly clean cats like Clifford & Horace came into there own and into the spotlight. 1954 is given as one "birth year", but if you look at 1953, you can see stuff like JJ's BN dates and Max's Debut dates (woefully underlooked as being a harbinger of things to come, imo) clearly showing that it was about to happen. Of course, East Coast labels like BN, Prestige, & Savoy were on hand and more than willing to record it all. They were probably tired of getting their asses kicked by the West Coast labels, and the East Coast musicians were probably tired of getting their asses kicked by the "Cool school". So the cats started getting better organized, started bands as opposed to presenting pickup groups jamming (at leastuntil the blowing session regained a more favorable image), allowed some inevitable socio-musical evolution to occur, and next thing you know, Hard Bop was "born". It was inevitable really, but inevitability makes for poor PR, doncha' know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Pres started it all. He started it ALL. End of story. -_- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Joking. I think. . . though some of those live dates from Pres in the first half of the fifties sure are some rockin' good hard swingbop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 yeah, but lately bedixie has my hard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Yup, definitely a slip of some sort. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn·m Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Jeez, my apologies to wesbed. I wish I’d seen this thread before starting something similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wesbed Posted September 15, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 (edited) Jeez, my apologies to wesbed. I wish I’d seen this thread before starting something similar. No problem. Dan Gould (the 38 year old? ) says there was already a topic started, in this same vein, before I posted my topic. We'll look at your topic too. What's the link? I think I found it here. Edited September 15, 2003 by wesbed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawn·m Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 Yes, that’s the one. So I could have added to two existing threads instead of starting a new one?.. I’m just trying to make an obscure point about parallel evolution. Yeah that’s the ticket, now where does my wife keep her painkillers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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