Wanna get reviewed?

[Jim Alfredson]

Maybe it's just me, but this seems kind of sketchy: http://www.sonicbids.com/Opportunity/Oppor...tunity_id=11632

Now, I'm not naive enough to to be ignorant of how things work in the magazine world. Though no magazine would admit it, if you take out an ad with a particular magazine, your likelyhood of getting a review increases dramatically. But this seems to be a pretty blatant take on that normally underhanded tactic.

For the record, we had a Sonicbids account for about a year. We spent a lot of money submitting to festivals, clubs, trying to get reviews, etc. Never got a single thing. Nothing. The business model is ripe for scam. One festival we submitted for admitted in a rejection letter that "thousands" of acts submitted. Thousands of acts, each paying $10 to submit to the festival, equals at least $10,000 in income for the festival. How much were they paying the actual act that got the gig? $1500.

Nice work if you can get it.

Back to the JazzTimes thing, it just doesn't seem ethical to me. What do you think?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

They don't seem to offer much, do they? But are there REALLY tens of thousands of jazz groups out there trying to get in?

MG

[marcello]

I bet JazzTimes knows nothing about it.

If I read this right, this company will submit your music to Jazz Times and also provide a EPK to them and others for a fee?

You can do this yourselves for free.

I always send copies directly to reviewers that I know. That way I can get a fair shot for a intellegent review.

Sometimes this backfires and it's not reviewed at all, but I would rather have that than get a review by some smart-ass who had his own agenda.

As far as Festival Promoters go, personal relationships are everything. That and relentless persistence.

And yes, there are (low) thousands of "jazz" groups who think they should have a shot at a festival. I talked to one US festival promoter not long ago and he had hundreds of requests, cds and other material from just pianists!

His festival is in June and when I talked to him it was mid October!

[jazzypaul]

We were thinking about going the sonicbids route. Does it work well as just a way to have an EPK ready and at hand, or is it completely pointless all the way around? Right now they're guaranteeing a at least one gig through them in six months, or they give you six months free. But if you're shelling out hundreds of dollars to get a gig that might pay a grand, is it really worth it?

I kinda thought that the submission fee thing reeked of bullshit, and I'd personally rather just attempt to make a personal contact on that front.

Anyone else see any use for an EPK at all?

and seriously, I have to wonder every day whether or not our stuff is even up to snuff. I dunno. self doubt + scam artists = serious impact on getting gigs.

Any advice?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

And yes, there are (low) thousands of "jazz" groups who think they should have a shot at a festival. I talked to one US festival promoter not long ago and he had hundreds of requests, cds and other material from just pianists!

Wow!

MG

[marcello]

We were thinking about going the sonicbids route. Does it work well as just a way to have an EPK ready and at hand, or is it completely pointless all the way around? Right now they're guaranteeing a at least one gig through them in six months, or they give you six months free. But if you're shelling out hundreds of dollars to get a gig that might pay a grand, is it really worth it?

I kinda thought that the submission fee thing reeked of bullshit, and I'd personally rather just attempt to make a personal contact on that front.

Anyone else see any use for an EPK at all?

and seriously, I have to wonder every day whether or not our stuff is even up to snuff. I dunno. self doubt + scam artists = serious impact on getting gigs.

Any advice?

EPKs are always a good idea if they are done right, but you'd be surprised by how many venues don't know how to use them, or don't use them at all. The use of Hi-Res photos, mp3's, links to reviews and videos should be at least a part of them. I'm pushimg for more active content to be a part of them. Here's Joe Locke's: Press/Media

[Jim Alfredson]

jp, I think Sonicbids is a scam. Yeah, I saw that new "get a gig guaranteed" thing and if you spend a moment to peruse the gigs they offer, most of them are non-paying "exposure" gigs. One gig a month? I can do better than that by cold-calling people.

Yes, marcello, you're right that festivals are all about making the contact, which is exactly why services like Sonicbids suck. They take that avenue away from you. There are many festivals that I've submitted press kits and CDs to in the past that had submission info or at least contact info on their websites. Now many of them just have a link to Sonicbids. How can you create a personal relationship with the festival director when you can't even get his/her contact information? How can you talk to them and convince them that your group is better than the thousands of others when they stop at your EPK for 10 seconds, listen to a couple seconds of an mp3, and then move on?

But yes, it can be a boon for whomever uses the service. Think about JazzTimes: As the ad readily admits, there are thousands of people wanting to get reviewed. Take a bit of cash from those thousands, review one or two discs a month from the submissions (and I doubt they are really under contract to review ANY of the submissions, if they don't want to), and rake in some serious bread.

Greg and I have joked numerous times about signing up Big O Records to Sonicbids. BIG O RECORDS is looking for artists!!! Submit your EPK for only $25 to us and we'll review your music and you might get signed to the label!!! Of course, Sonicbids won't enforce that we actually sign anybody, so we could just sit there and wait for the money to roll in for doing nothing.

Scam.

[Jim Alfredson]

I should add, that it is not hard to create your own EPK that looks and functions much better than the Sonicbids one.

[Christiern]

Having written for several publications over the years, I am happy to say that none made advertising a condition for reviews. When Dan Morgenstern was the Editor of Down Beat, I wrote a concert review in which I complained that the band was miked for the recording and not for the Carnegie Hall audience. I thought it showed a warped sense of priorities when an audience had to shell out additional money for an album in order to hear what went on in their presence. This produced a very long and nasty letter to the Down Beat from Bob Thiele (whose concert/recording event this was). He threatened to withdraw all advertising from the magazine. Dan did the right thing, he told Bob that no advertiser was going to make editorial decisions at DB. Thiele was not heard from again, and continued to advertise.

I spent 28 years writing for Stereo Review and the magazine did not carry ads for records. After many years, I found that a music editor was allowing his judgement to be made by the way record companies treated him. I doubt if they actually gave him money, but some labels went out of their way to buy expensive lunches, drinks, etc--in other words, to establish a personal relationship. One such company was Columbia. The label's PR people were very happy when I was giving Wynton favorable reviews, but there came a time when I noted that he was not living up to expectations, so I noted that. I don't know whether it was somebody at the label or simply the music editor not wanting to displease the label, but I began to notice that my unfavorable reviews did not get published. There had been pressure from Columbia a few ears earlier,before I came to the magazine: Gene Lees wrote an amusing fable about a fine French restaurant and described how its menu gradually changed until it ended up as a hamburger joint. It was clear to anyone with a modicum of perception that this was a satirical take on Columbia Records. Gene was fired.

Finally, I should add that industry trade publications like Cash Box and Billboard have--as far back as I can remember--based their music charts on the amount of revenue generated by the label's advertising. One editor--who shall remain nameless--was also a sporadic record producer. He always made his own records pick of the week. I think everyone knew this, but it was rarely talked about.

Getting back to JazzTimes, I think the following paragraph from the Sonicbids site is outrageous. Preference ought to be given to meritorious performance, whether the artist has or has not established a name. To put name recognition before performance or musical quality is not only unfair, it is preposterous. It reveals how warped priorities really have become.

Preference is given to

core or established jazz artists. The appearance of these core artists (someone like Jack DeJohnette, Christian McBride or Kenny Barron) on a CD by a relatively unknown artist can be helpful in pushing a CD above the hundreds of other releases from local jazz groups. It is preferred that the group or artist has performed and gotten airplay in areas other than its home city or region.

Note: The bolding in above quote is mine.

[Jim Alfredson]

Christiern, thank you. I agree 100% about the preference paragraph and it really bothered me as well. Does Jack DeJohnette, Christian McBride, or Kenny Barron really have trouble getting reviewed in publications like JazzTimes to begin with? Isn't this service from Sonicbids supposed to help no-name artists like myself get a review in a major magazine?

I think that paragraph basically says, "Yeah, we'll take your money, but you probably won't get reviewed anyway."

And so we're back to square one and a little bit lighter in the wallet.

[Guest Bill Barton]

If we're talking about Jazz Times, Downbeat, Jazziz (or jazz isn't as the case may be) or the other so-called "glossies," the commercial-ad connection may very well be the connection for getting a review. It's not any coincidence in my opinion that full-page ads and feature articles (often slightly rewritten press releases) on one particular musician show up the same month in more than one mag.

Tom Marcello is right on with his comments. From my experience, writing for what might be referred to as "alternative" magazines, ads are not an issue. At Signal to Noise the vast majority of CDs I've reviewed are sent via the editorial offices. CODA is generally a different story. Most of what I've written about I've obtained on my own from one source or another: direct from the artists, direct from independent recording companies, through promotion companies, or - in some cases - CDs I've purchased myself. The same with All About Jazz. Recently, thanks to a tug on the coattails from Lazaro, I joined the Jazz Programmers List, which is turning out to be an invaluable resource. If you don't have the URL for this list, Jim, please PM me and I'll get it out to you.

And, yes, Sonicbids sounds like a scam to me too.

Edited December 10, 2007 by Bill Barton

[Chuck Nessa]

I have to say (my suspicion is) the "editorial offices" of many pubs currently select which cds to send out for review and which reviews to publish based on the prejudices of the editor. Some of this is music based and some business based. Don't really have a problem if a jazz mag decides to exclude a review of the latest smooth jazz release AND I'm sure they get hundreds of "local" acts and must cut somewhere.

Nothing really bad here unless the choice is totally economic. I'm sure a bunch of these mags get "shit" samples and ignore the "product".

I do know Uptown had been regularly buying ads in a mag and no reviews appeared. Finally the company bitched and they did a positive review of the Diz/Bird disc. Cause and effect? Will never know.

I also know when I issued the AE box, bought an ad, a review appeard. I asked the reviewer why they didn't include my address as they did for Mosaic. He said it was because I didn't place an ad. I said I had and he said "then they fucked up".

[porcy62]

Sorry to hear this, though I always thought it.

Musical business isn't different from any other business, and all the press, and medias in general, are blackmailed by insertionists. Basically the big companies own the press as long as the press survive on advertising, instead of readers. I am sure Brownie would have some deep insight about it.

About tv broadcasting, my playground, it works like this.

edit: and I just discovered that book's publishing is the same.

Edited December 10, 2007 by porcy62

[Joe G]

blackmailed by insertionists

[Chuck Nessa]

Must be a word for that.

[Dan Gould]

Getting screwed?

[Joe G]

If that's what porcy meant, I think I like the new phrase even better!

[Guest Bill Barton]

Don't forget the lube .

[Christiern]

Is my memory playing tricks on me or was there a horny Havana glee club known as the Insertionistas?

[Spontooneous]

You're thinking of the literary movement, Les Insertionistes, that Hemingway dabbled with.

[Chuck Nessa]

You're thinking of the literary movement, Les Insertionistes, that Hemingway dabbled with.

Nah, I'd bet Chris's glee club memory pans out.

[Spontooneous]

"The insertionists are in their last throes..."

[jazzypaul]

alright, we know that the sonicbids "pay to submit" plan is a total scam, but has their EPK actually done any good for you, Jim?

[Jazzmoose]

Is my memory playing tricks on me or was there a horny Havana glee club known as the Insertionistas?

Damn it, Chris; this is the kind of gratuitious post...oh, wait; wrong thread...

[Jazzmoose]

You know, I always wondered why the artists I never heard of that had the big ads in JazzTimes were the same artists I'd never heard of that got reviewed; I was naive enough to think I was just being overly suspicious...

But that Sonicbid thing sounds like a lawsuit in the making to me, assuming it's legal.