William F. Buckley Jr Dies at 82

[Achtung Dr. Freud Calling]

No problem at all with Mr. Vidal's remark. "Crypto-Nazi" is, if anything, a nice word for Buckley.

[Tom Storer]

Oh, Christ, not the JFK assassination. Everybody's an expert, everybody knows the fact or supposed fact that PROVES a vast conspiracy, unless they have the slam-dunk refutation of the other guy's incontrovertible fact. Quick, somebody start talking about Wynton!

[Christiern]

Ellis Marsalis had something to do with JFK's assassination? Oh, yeah, the Oswald-New Orleans connection!

[Brownian Motion]

Mr. Buckley departs the scene, the political movement he championed now almost universally recognized as an umbrella group of grafters, war profiteers, social misfits, science deniers, religious wackos, chicken hawks, liars, thieves, child molesters, and the mentally disordered. Nice legacy, Bill.

I thought it might be interesting if this thread went in this forum but then again I should have expected this kind of vile filth.

Will one of the mods place this thread where it belongs so that all the other liberal haters can shit on the memory of a great man without my having to read it? Thank you in advance.

Should everything that offends you be moved to some "doesn't offend Dan Gould" folder? There was no vile filth, just one guy's assessment of what a public figure was all about. Doesn't mean that I'd put it in those terms, but there was nothing vile or filthy about it.

Of course not. He was talking about republicans. How could that possibly offend anyone?

I was talking about "movement" conservatives, who have infested a once great political party. I consider this an important distinction, though you apparently don't.

[Chalupa]

"And I was caught here in an ethical crisis. Should I advertise a product that I don't actually use? It's a problem 'cause I'm not a drinker, my body won't tolerate...eh...spirits, really. I had two martinis new years eve and I tried to hi-jack an elevator and fly it to Cuba. In the past whenever I had any sort of...eh...emotional problem, I used to consult with my analyst all the time. This is public knowledge, I was in analysis for years, 'cause of a traumatic childhood I had. Remember I was breastfed from falsies. It scarred me emotionally, y'know. I was in a strict freudian analysis for a long time. My analyst died two years ago, and I never realized it, and now, whenever I have any sort of problem, I consult with my spiritual counselor, who in my case is my rabbi. I called him on the phone and laid the proposition on him, and he said "Don't do it, 'cause it's illegal and immoral to advertise a product that you don't use, just for the money." And I said "Okay", and I passed the ad up and I must say, that it took great courage at the time, 'cause I needed the money, I was writing and I needed to be free, creative. I was working on a non-fiction version of the Warren report."

~Woody Allen

[papsrus]

Buckley had nothing to do with the JFK assassination ... I think.

He found much disagreement with the neocons who have hijacked the Republican Party, I believe. I recall reading somewhere that he was shunned during a conservative cruise a year or two ago for expressing views that weren't sufficiently bloodthirsty.

He was an entertaining guy, more reasonable -- or reasoned -- than much of what passes for conservatism today, certainly. RIP.

[Larry Kart]

No doubt it's been said elsewhere on this thread, but Buckley's most direct heir is Ann Coulter. That is, Buckley's chief tactic back then, and the one that brought him renown, was to give the then-grey, holding-action Conservative position an illusion of shpritizy, almost "pop' activity by stating one its actual or implict postions in the most provocative, outrageous manner possible. A famous example -- when asked when the people of Africa should be allowed to govern themselves rather than be ruled by colonial regimes, he replied: "When they stop eating each other." Again, there may have been principles at work in Buckley at some times, however vile they might have been, but essentially he was a dandaical "entertainer."

[AllenLowe]

actually, Tom, there are experts on the JFK assassaination: Paul Hoch, Josiah Thompson, Henry Hurt, Dick Russell, Phillip Bradford, Anthony Marsh, Philip Melanson, John Neman, Gary Aguilar, Sylvia Meagher, Peter Dale Scott - all of whom have done important and credible research and all of whom have found some frighteningly direct evidence - this is one of those subjects in which people make generalizations without much research or evidence - somewhat like jazz history, I have found. But there is a lot more out there than people generally know; I would not consider myself an expert but have been keeping tabs on current research since the 1970s; but I will let it go...

as this is about Buckley - Larry's comparison to Coulter is apprpriate though I think she's even meaner than he was - I do remember some of Buckley's better lines - one to the effect that he'd rather be governed by the first 25 people listed in the Boston phone book than by the Board of Directors of Harvard University -

Edited February 28, 2008 by AllenLowe

[Larry Kart]

Buckley's cleverly adopted and executed role back then (beginning in the late 1950s with "God and Man at Yale," his McCarthy book and his TV persona), was, in the words of critic Donald Phelps, "to give the illusion of movement to an essentially static position." When the "Movement conservatives" of recent years took over and began to actually do their aggressively evil deeds, some of which in form and substance were utterly beyond anything the likes of Buckley could have imagined let alone desired, the part of Buckley that existed in the real world and had actual patrician interests began to blanch and protest, all to no effect. He had become irrelevant within what once was his own coven.

[BruceH]

and he also said in early editions of the National Review that blacks shouldn't be given the right to vote.

Which is heinous enough if you're from Mississippi. But at least there, it was part of the culture. If you're a segregationist from Connecticut, you're just an asshole.

I just found out that his father was from Texas and his mother from New Orleans, so he came by his youthful segregationist views naturally enough I guess.

Still a dick, though.

Stangely (or not so much perhaps) compared to some of his political descendents he seems like a model of sanity and restraint.

[BruceH]

He found much disagreement with the neocons who have hijacked the Republican Party, I believe. I recall reading somewhere that he was shunned during a conservative cruise a year or two ago for expressing views that weren't sufficiently bloodthirsty.

That was an article in The New Republic and I just read it recently. He was proposing that the Iraq war was not a total success and there were no WMD and getting grief for it.

[Dan Gould]

OK, Allen. Zapruder 313-317. Show me the wound to the rear of his skull. Show me ANY damage that would indicate a shot fired from the front.

[Randy Twizzle]

Ok I think I got it now.

WFB: evil but still not quite as evil as the horrible terrible awful lousy disgraceful shameless murderous stinking people who have followed him into the conservative (shudder...) movement.

I don't understand why anyone would want this thread in the Political forum

[7/4]

Ok I think I got it now.

WFB: evil but still not quite as evil as the horrible terrible awful lousy disgraceful shameless murderous stinking people who have followed him into the conservative (shudder...) movement.

I don't understand why anyone would want this thread in the Political forum

It's like sports. Everybody loves this kinda stuff.

[jazzypaul]

And for whatever its worth Paul, Buckley subsequently declared that he was wrong for supporting segregation and wrong for opposing the Voting Rights and Civil Rights Acts and ultimately supported a national holiday for MLK. There is a far more rational and even-handed discussion of Buckley's life here at the New York Times not that you would have any reason whatsoever to read it.

You still never explained your little blasé comment at the end of your statement, but anyway...

Okay, so I read it, and I am glad to say that he backed away from his stance on segregationism. It's also interesting to note that he thought that there could be a case to be made to impeach Bush. Maybe he was slightly alright after all.

[porcy62]

Has anybody any idea of the numbers of posts we'll need to solve the JFK case?

Meanwhile I want all the forum cleared, snipers on the roofs around the building of the server and 24 h satellite surveillance.

[BERIGAN]

I know that site Dan, you might try reading the researchers who have successfuly debunked every piece of info there - I know McAdams, who is a dedicated right-winger; as for that head shot, as you can clearly see in your picture, the missing parts are from an entry wound from the front and there is a deficit in the top and BACK of the head; a flap from the back has opened, and that is what you see on top and in back - a classic exit wound seen by EVERY doctor at the Dallas hospital - the secret service agent behind Kennedy (Roy Kellerman) heard TWO shots in rapid succession (which alone proves there were two shooters) and said he saw the bullet hit JFK in the front -you weren't there so I guess you know better

as for JFK's politics, much more complicated than you can understand - and by the way it was Bobby who worked for Joe

McCarthy, not JFK, so get it straight - JFK was pulling out of Vietnam (see Schlessinger, Galbraith, Sorenson, Newman et all); he was the first president to attempt to put real civilian controls on the military; and according tot he Church Committee, ordered the CIA to STOP the Castro assassination plots (he was negotiating with Castro at the moment of his death; had a rep in Paris meeting with a Cuban rep) -

I have been corresponding with John Kenneth Galbraith's son, who has informed me that LBJ TOLD Galbraith that he was convinced JFK had been been murdered by Military Intelligence along with CIA ops -

but hey, LBJ didn'tknow anything and neither did Galbraith -

the difference between us is that I have read ALL of the Warren report plus the site you bookmarked - PLUS all of the assassination researchers - the whole case is much more complicated than you'll ever know unless you take the time to read opnions that differ from yours - too much work, I know -

Allen, have you ever looked at the McAdams site??? Or just relied on others to tell you everything has been debunked???

I remember posting much info on this site/subject years ago here... ever see this photo??? http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/sbt3.jpg or this one???

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/robinson1.jpg

Taken from this page, The Single Bullet Theory.

are they facts, or did he alter them???

[porcy62]

I propose a Conspiracy Thread.

From Rosewell and Area 51 to Dallas, from MIB to NSA, from Da Vinci Code to GWB anything goes.

Think about it, Jim.

BTW there is somebody in this board that really believe in this:

Edited February 29, 2008 by porcy62

[Van Basten II]

While we're at it, i'm pretty sure that Clemens's urine and blood test was spiked. Any theories about that ?

Edited February 29, 2008 by Van Basten II

[Dan Gould]

While we're at it, i'm pretty sure that Clemens's urine and blood test was spiked.

[Chuck Nessa]

I knew Dan would enjoy this thread.

[AllenLowe]

Berigan -

I know McAdams well - we are email pals, I've read everything on his site - the difference between you and me and is that I've also read counter-arguments to everything he has posted - like the single bullet theory - were you aware that the two Dallas cops who handed the magic bullet over to evidence testified years later that the bullet which is now exhibited is NOT the bullet they found (BOTH cops testified to this independently); the bullet they found was a different jacket and shape of the kind NOT used in the alleged rifle -

so boys don't talk to me until you've 1) actually read the Warren Report and 2) have actually read books by people who critique both the report and McAdams - start with Henry Hurt (a nice man, a Republican, who wrote a book and was convinced it was a conspiracy) than try Josiah Thompson (the most respected private investigator in the country) and than maybe Anthony Summers -

as for those pics - thanks, Dan, as they show a bullet hitting Kennedy in the side of his head - of course there's a blowout in the back of the head - notice, Dan, that the picture only shows the front, so unless you can see around corners you won't see the back hole - but I suppose the 26 medical people at Parkland Hospital, who reported the hole in the back of the head were all lying (maybe conspiring to lie?) - also nice to see the shot pushing his head backwards - in spite of pseudo scientific testimony about a "jet effect" all tests of an object being shot push it in the OPPOSITE direction - and I suppose you missed this in the actual Zapruder film -

[AllenLowe]

I'm glad we're amused by the idea of conspiracy - ever hear of the RICO statutes? Brought down the Mafia by proving - guess what? conspiracy, which is one of the most common of criminal enterprises -

McAdams has misrepresented the medical evidence in a serious way, Berigan - you need to read Gary Aguilar's work - it's definitive - \

a question (and challenge) for Berigan and GOuld - I have read the Warren Report, Posner's book, all of McAdams -

what pro-conspiracy stuff have you read?

hmmmmm....just as I suspected - it's always great to reject things you have not actually read -

[Brownian Motion]

I propose a Conspiracy Thread.

Done.

[JSngry]

Maybe he was slightly alright after all.

Not even slightly.

But being "alright" was not the game he played. His game was ideology over anything/everything, and he played it quite well, thank you.

People like that don't exist to be "alright", but to put spme shit out there that you gotta confront on your way from Point A to Point Z. If you walk around it altogether, you're a slacker. If you get stuck in it and can't move out of it at all, you're a sap. But if you confront it an are honest, you can't help but come to the conclusion that no "pure" ideology is worth a damn as a practical application, and/but also that that sword cuts both ways and that the middle is nothing without the opposite poles which define it.