good riddance to record stores ?

[six string]

I remember, five years ago, in my beloved town of Nice, it was still possible to buy very fine records, (including top jazz rarities), in one of the three or four vinyl stores. I had good relationship with the owners, and was able to discover many interesting records. Also used to to trade ad sell some. All those record shop had resisted to the FNAC / VIRGIN invasion, because it was not the same market, obviously. But what made them eventually close was Ebay. For two reasons : one is that owners decided to sell the best stuff (if not the entire stuff) through internet ; other is that many non professionnal sellers willing to sell their records actually sell them directly through ebay, not to those shops. Everybody had good reasons to that, of course.

The "Marché aux Puces" de Clignancourt, in Paris, is still a good place to find interesting records, anyway. If if you shop every week, you will always find something for your taste. (If you accept to forget about any smile, or sympathy from a seller : we are in France )

One of my favorite record shop and tourist experiences ever was in Paris. I had been in Avignon all week and a friend had been staying in Paris in the Latin Quarter during the same time. I took the train to Paris to stay overnight with him before flying out the next day together. He took me to a shop that only sold jazz but I can't remember the name of the shop. Not only was the owner happy and friendly but unknown to us, he spoke to a friend on the phone who arrived with four glasses of Pouilly Fume'. The friend had been a jazz club owner at one time and the four of us had some wonderful conversation about our favorite shows, albums, artists, etc.

When we got ready to leave, the owner not only recomended a restaurant, he called the place to let them know we were coming.

So where are those snotty Parisians I've heard so much about?

[Big Beat Steve]

In 1997 I drove to Austria and South Germany. I recall the most amazing first floor CD shop in Munich, almost hidden from view. A huge floor of jazz and classical where I could easily have spent vast sums.

Yeah, that was BECK'S, obviously. A good place for CDs (in 1996 or so they still had a vinyl corner with interesting Fresh Sounds and Japanese imports but that vanished fast).

During my occasional trips there I DID spend fairly huge sums.

Their big advantage is that they carry MANY collector's labels that otherwise are relatively badly distributed and also do/did mail order. But overall they tend to be pricey, and as they stopped publishing their monthly newsletter a couple of years ago tracking down new releases/reissues to order them directly from them has also become more complicated. I haven't been there for a while so it might well be the entire operation has been scaled down since.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Big Beat Steve

[Big Beat Steve]

He took me to a shop that only sold jazz but I can't remember the name of the shop. Not only was the owner happy and friendly but unknown to us, he spoke to a friend on the phone who arrived with four glasses of Pouilly Fume'. The friend had been a jazz club owner at one time and the four of us had some wonderful conversation about our favorite shows, albums, artists, etc.

When we got ready to leave, the owner not only recomended a restaurant, he called the place to let them know we were coming.

Sounds like it might have been CROCOJAZZ. The description of the owner certainly fits. I had a similar experience during my very first visit there in 2001 (and somehow I still regret I didn't have more time to socialize a little as I had a VERY busy one-day shopping schedule that day )

Edited December 1, 2008 by Big Beat Steve

[Hot Ptah]

Also worth remembering that with each passing minute a few more people will arrive in the world who will only ever know downloads and a few more who recall the older way of doing things will depart. The 'good old days' of the record shop will have as much meaning as the days when everyone sat round the box watching two channels and therefore the nation had a shared experience at work the next day. In other words, in the minds of the new generation, the ramblings of the aging, sentimentally romanticising their past.

We all have our memories of the old way of doing things and understandably mourn the way an ever faster world is sweeping them away. But that will be an irrelevance to all but a handful of the generation growing up now (there will always be a few who are attracted by the older way of doing things).

What matters to me is being able to hear the music - be it the legacy of the past or new things currently appearing. If it isn't cursed with skips, jumps, flutter, wow, rice krispie noises, muffled sound etc then I'll take it in any way it comes. The record store are ceasing to provide that where I live - the online stores and, increasingly, the download stores and musician sites are. I'll retain my fond memories of going record hunting on a Saturday; but am happy to adapt to the more flexible new model.

I agree that a younger generation is coming up that is more familiar with technology than brick and mortar stores. My 12 year old daughter would not consider buying a CD. She asks for an ITunes gift card regularly, the way I used to ask my parents if I could buy an LP that I really wanted, when I was too young to have much of my own money.

She also text messages her friends all the time. All of the kids do. As she puts it, "email is so old fashioned."

Still, I see many young people in the used music stores which I frequent, in their late teens and early 20s. They are music nuts just like me, only at a different stage of their journey. They stand over the used vinyl marvelling that there are certain jazz or folk albums in good condition. I think that there will always be people like that, of every generation. It is too easy to generalize about an entire generation, I think. There were never all that many people in the 1970s, on a percentage basis, going to the used music stores every week either.

Bev, it sounds to me like the brick and mortar scene where you live is abysmal. I didn't know that I had it so good with brick and mortar music stores in Kansas City, until I read your posts here.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Hot Ptah

[ejp626]

It will sound grumpy but I think people should interact with their fellow humans and not live in a bunker and eat soylent green. We have become so isolated in many ways.

My experience in record shops of pretty limited interaction - everyone is burrowing away looking for their own choice of CDs, no different than people hunting down their provisions in a supermarket. Yes, I've known shops where I've got to know the owner and had a nice chat - but it's hardly the norm for most buyers.

You are also forgetting that by purchasing online rather han trawling the record stores we might be reducing isolation and increasing social interaction. The time liberated from hunting for records can be used reconnecting with family and friends. I don't spend a fraction of the time searching for CDs online than I used to spend on a trip to town on a purchasing hunt.

I wonder if it is a big city thing. I have very marginal interaction with the record store clerks, partly because everytime I am in there, it is someone different. And Reckless for instance is almost as busy as a McDonalds, high turnover and no time to chat. Of all the staff at Dusty Groove, I think I have had meaningful interaction with one. The one place where there is time to talk to the staff is Dr. Wax up in Evanston (because it is a failing shop with little foot traffic), but the last time I was there, the clerk was on his cell phone screaming at his ex and then trying to rope me into it. After that, I'll take on-line shopping every day.

[michel1969]

We all have our memories of the old way of doing things and understandably mourn the way an ever faster world is sweeping them away. But that will be an irrelevance to all but a handful of the generation growing up now (there will always be a few who are attracted by the older way of doing things).

One of my favourite nonsense moment is to tell my students an "USSR era" joke. I always say : "its a XXth century joke, no one of you will laugh". And this is exactly what happens.

[Hot Ptah]

We all have our memories of the old way of doing things and understandably mourn the way an ever faster world is sweeping them away. But that will be an irrelevance to all but a handful of the generation growing up now (there will always be a few who are attracted by the older way of doing things).

One of my favourite nonsense moment is to tell my students an "USSR era" joke. I always say : "its a XXth century joke, no one of you will laugh". And this is exactly what happens.

However, there too--someone spray painted "USSR" across the large Obama campaign signs on a main street in Kansas City. My 12 year old daughter and her friends understood exactly what the USSR was and how it tied into the Republican attacks of Obama as a socialist.

[Jazzmoose]

I was about about to say "okay, let's go, please order for me", when, by changing my angle of view, i noticed that the guy was actually browsing Ebay shops listings.

Give the man credit for nerve!

[Jazzmoose]

It will sound grumpy but I think people should interact with their fellow humans and not live in a bunker and eat soylent green.

It's not bad with a little bit of worcestershire sauce...

[Teasing the Korean]

Searching major online shops, true. But Ebay does have a nice link called "Visit Sellers Store" which can often reveal things you've never heard of. I've also had luck in the past with one or two GEMM dealers, after I stumbled upon their listing in search of one item, I've found a number of other things I didn't know about by scrolling through their stock.

I browse on dustygroove.com quite a bit, and have discovered things that way. Still, there's something about randomly stumbling across something in a shop, having it in your hand, and feeling compelled to buy it. I guess that's the main difference for me. A good percentage of my record buying has been based more on what I randomly find rather than looking for a particular title.

[Dan Gould]

Searching major online shops, true. But Ebay does have a nice link called "Visit Sellers Store" which can often reveal things you've never heard of. I've also had luck in the past with one or two GEMM dealers, after I stumbled upon their listing in search of one item, I've found a number of other things I didn't know about by scrolling through their stock.

I browse on dustygroove.com quite a bit, and have discovered things that way. Still, there's something about randomly stumbling across something in a shop, having it in your hand, and feeling compelled to buy it. I guess that's the main difference for me. A good percentage of my record buying has been based more on what I randomly find rather than looking for a particular title.

I agree the tactile difference is important, but on the other hand, there's one big advantage to discovering unknown titles in the way I described: You can consult online sources like AMG to figure out if you really want it or not! Most of us have probably bought something in a shop and not realized til we got home that it was something we already had in a different form.

[Tjazz]

speaking of "good riddance"

I was shopping in Amoeba and they were BLASTING some METAL ROCK over the speakers. It was so loud, that I felt that I needed to bring earplugs next time I shop there. Like, how am I suppose to shop with this LOUD music banging around? I can understand a small shop doing that, but a large store BLASTING music?

[JSngry]

When it comes to discovering things you never even knew existed, the blogs win, hands gown.

Problem is, after you find out about it, you have to find someplace to buy it...

[Teasing the Korean]

When it comes to discovering things you never even knew existed, the blogs win, hands gown.

Problem is, after you find out about it, you have to find someplace to buy it...

And then when you finally find a copy, you don't remember you were looking for it.

[Chalupa]

Music retailers report bleak sales on Black Friday

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081202/music_nm/us_sales_1

[Fer Urbina]

I read recently that the chap at Rays has been let go by Foyles. I'm not sure if that means the shop too.

I was at Ray's on Sunday Nov 23. The coffee shop has indeed taken all the floor in that part of the first floor, but as far as I know they've moved the records upstairs to the music section, which they are re-arranging (that affects to the remainders and second-hand books room too, IIRC).

The expansion of the coffee shop and moving the records upstairs makes perfect sense to me.

F

[Tom Storer]

One of my favorite record shop and tourist experiences ever was in Paris. [...] He took me to a shop that only sold jazz but I can't remember the name of the shop.

When was that, six string? The last time I remember there being a jazz-only record shop in Paris--other than second-hand, that is--was back in the eighties when there was a shop called Pannonica on the rue Racine, near the Odéon theater. I think they were gone before the CD age arrived.

[Hot Ptah]

I think that the reality is that retail music stores are in a difficult period. If there are still unique, excellent stores anywhere, which give pleasure to some music lovers, the next issue is whether they should be celebrated for what they are, or attacked and condemned as unwelcome relics of a previous age.

I guess I don't understand the need to condemn such places and argue that they need to go out of business for the greater good. I have detected more than a hint of such thinking on this thread. What is the harm of the continued existence of such places?

[Big Beat Steve]

I guess I don't understand the need to condemn such places and argue that they need to go out of business for the greater good. I have detected more than a hint of such thinking on this thread. What is the harm of the continued existence of such places?

I couldn't detect anything like that in the replies to the opening post. Seems like many mourn the demise of the stores, and those who do not exactly mourn the demise don't do so because they have found other ways of doing their music shopping. But even they do not seem to think it was a GOOD thing for good (!) shops to disappear.

So what exactly is it that you think was condemned here in the replies in this topic?

[Hot Ptah]

I guess I don't understand the need to condemn such places and argue that they need to go out of business for the greater good. I have detected more than a hint of such thinking on this thread. What is the harm of the continued existence of such places?

I couldn't detect anything like that in the replies to the opening post. Seems like many mourn the demise of the stores, and those who do not exactly mourn the demise don't do so because they have found other ways of doing their music shopping. But even they do not seem to think it was a GOOD thing for good (!) shops to disappear.

So what exactly is it that you think was condemned here in the replies in this topic?

I have reread all of the posts on this thread, and it is my distinct impression that several of them do not mean to state that they have reluctantly substituted online purchasing for declining retail stores out of unfortunate necessity. Several posts, from the way that I read them, state that retail stores are inferior to online purchasing and that retail stores may as well go the way of the dinosaur.

Others may interpret the posts another way. As mankind has argued endlessly about the meaning of the works of Shakespeare, the Bible, and James Joyce's "Ulysses", to name a few, it is not surprising that we may attach different interpretations to the posts on this thread.

[paul secor]

I've also gotten the sense that some are of the opinion that brick and mortar stores should disappear because they serve no purpose. That's not my opinion.

Edited December 2, 2008 by paul secor

[Big Beat Steve]

Well, maybe I'm biased because that's not my opinion either so I may be reluctant imagining somebody else would LIKE to see them disappear.

And I still cannot see anybody around here would want to see decently stocked record shops disappear that offer a chance of making that "rare find" at an OK price (in short, those shops most of us reminisce about here and on the Mole Jazz thread)!

However, if it is a question of seeing those present-day shops disappear that offer less and less selection (beyond the obvious hit parade items and mass-appeal compilations) plus lousy service, couldn't-care-less behind-the-counter hacks AND outrageous prices (in short, the kind of outlet many formerly good record stores have degenerated into) then YES - I can understand the indifference or approval of their demise. But from the point of view of those who remember how many record stores used to be that amounts to beating a(n almost) dead horse so what's the difference?

Gonna play me some "Record Shop Suey" by Lee Konitz now! :D

[six string]

Music retailers report bleak sales on Black Friday

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081202/music_nm/us_sales_1

I went into R5 (Russ Solomon's one yr old store that rose from the ashes of Tower) last Friday to buy a cd I knew they had and there were less than ten people in the store and this was at 10:30 in the morning. Forget about opening at 6am with people lined up around the block to get in, there was practically no one there. Of course they had a 10% off everything sale going on and compared to some of the big chain stores that do the big price reductions, I'm sure that there were cheaper places to buy music that day.

On that same day I called Concord Music's 800 number to check on an order that seemed a little late to me and I got a recorded message that said they were closed through the entire weekend. So they didn't even have one person there to check on an order's status and their website didn't allow me to do it either. That seemed a little odd, but if they aren't selling, I guess there's no reason to keep someone on the payroll to watch the clock.

[A Lark Ascending]

I think that the reality is that retail music stores are in a difficult period. If there are still unique, excellent stores anywhere, which give pleasure to some music lovers, the next issue is whether they should be celebrated for what they are, or attacked and condemned as unwelcome relics of a previous age.

I guess I don't understand the need to condemn such places and argue that they need to go out of business for the greater good. I have detected more than a hint of such thinking on this thread. What is the harm of the continued existence of such places?

I don't subscribe to any 'deserve to die' thesis. I loved record shops in their heyday.

I do feel the are economically unviable. The market for physical product will be twofold:

a) Roughly the 25+ age range who are avid music enthusiasts, a small proportion of that total population.

b) Those in the 25+ age range who have only a little interest in music and tend to buy the big sellers; buying a CD out of a rack remains an easier way of acquiring the odd recording if the mysteries of downloading or online purchasing are too much.

CDs will continue to be made as long as group b) are demanding them - but they can be distributed from supermarkets. In much the same way as you can still buy film for cameras because people like my mum can't understand how you can take a picture any other way.

Given the business practices of the majors in recent years I cannot see any effort being expended to satisfy group a) (that's us!).

*****************

As for condemning, any criticism of physical stores here is as nothing compared with the regular assertions levelled at download quality (in the last few days I saw 'crappy MP3s' stated as a fact). This, ignoring the rapid strides being made technologically in creating downloads. It reminds me of those who continue to deny the quality of CD next to vinyl because they heard some lazy transfers in the 80s. Things have moved on. I suspect any difference between a CD and a lossless download falls into the world of sticking your CDs in the fridge or colouring the edges with marker and convincing yourself they sound better (whatever happened to reversing polarity, by the way?).

It's one thing to say you like the feel, packaging of a CD and the experience of buying it in a store. But there is often a subtext that this is a better way of acquiring music that will consequently survive once the current fad passes. In my view, it's sad to see a much enjoyed way of acquiring music pass; but I look to the new opportunities opened by the new ways. Travelling by car clearly misses out on many of the experiences of travelling by stage coach; but it also offers new possibilities. It means the staging inns must adapt or close; but that is the nature of change.

*****************

I wonder if fighting for the survival of record shops and physical product will actually help musicians. It forces them not only to pay to record and process those recordings but then create the physical product, store it and then somehow distribute it. The download route eliminates much of the latter, allowing musicians to get music out more easily, more cheaply and closer to original recording date (think of the Dave Douglas live recordings of two years back).

It means a vast sea of recordings, not filtered in the way they were when a recording contract was required with a label. But that might have interesting repercussions. Instead of being obsessed by the idea of getting the 'best of' current music, we'll all filter for ourselves, finding our own personal areas (be they local or in someone elses locality).

Ten years ago many of my new jazz recordings were from the standard Verve/Blue Note etc stable and mainly American. Today I'm more likely to follow up on local musicians, Italian musicians, Australian musicians. Not because they are better but because I have discovered a world I like there - and I discovered that world via the new technology.

[Jazzjet]

I do feel the are economically unviable. The market for physical product will be twofold:

a) Roughly the 25+ age range who are avid music enthusiasts, a small proportion of that total population.

b) Those in the 25+ age range who have only a little interest in music and tend to buy the big sellers; buying a CD out of a rack remains an easier way of acquiring the odd recording if the mysteries of downloading or online purchasing are too much.

CDs will continue to be made as long as group b) are demanding them - but they can be distributed from supermarkets. In much the same way as you can still buy film for cameras because people like my mum can't understand how you can take a picture any other way.

Given the business practices of the majors in recent years I cannot see any effort being expended to satisfy group a) (that's us!).

Good analysis Bev.

I live in a city ( Truro ) that used to have four decent record shops with a degree of specialisation ( this is about three years ago ). Now there's only one - HMV - and they are devoting more and more space to DVDs and games. I've often wondered whether there is a market opportunity for a music distribution service that caters to your group ( a ) by creating a community and actually asking these customers - who, after all, are pretty much guaranteed spenders - what they want to see published and tailoring their output to these needs. This would probably be mostly archive material but not necessarily. Imagine the buzz about getting a group of fellow enthusiasts to come up with their combined wants lists and then serving that need. Interestingly, Sony Legacy have started the process of asking for suggestions for future issues and a group of Miles Davis fans are already putting together their wish lists and lobbying for them.