Funny Rat

[Guest Chaney]

Unfortunately, I'm not able to travel / spend money right now as most of my money is soon to go toward the purchase of... (wait for it) ... CLOTHES!

Yes clothes. Money that could (and should!) be spent on music thrown away on apparel.

I'm tearing up just typing this.

[John B]

Unfortunately, I'm not able to travel / spend money right now as most of my money is soon to go toward the purchase of... (wait for it) ... CLOTHES!

Yes clothes.  Money that could (and should!) be spent on music thrown away on apparel. 

I'm tearing up just typing this.

←

Will they be musical clothes, at least?

[Д.Д.]

Unfortunately, I'm not able to travel / spend money right now as most of my money is soon to go toward the purchase of... (wait for it) ... CLOTHES!

Yes clothes.  Money that could (and should!) be spent on music thrown away on apparel. 

I'm tearing up just typing this.

←

Edited September 1, 2005 by Д.Д.

[John B]

Feeling slightly less cocky, I thought I'd be brave and give Three Dances (Potlatch) another try.  Egad I dislike this... music!  More electronic screaches, whines and hums from the electronic end (Phil Durant) with the at one time wonderful Bertrand Denzler and Burkhard Beins doing their best -- and too often succeeding --  to NOT sound as if they're playing acoustic instruments. 

I'm just not getting it... if there is, in fact, anything to get.

←

For an interesting review and discussion on this disc head on over to Bagatellen.

[king ubu]

For the bass lovers among us... (David?) - I picked this up two days ago, dirt-cheap in a sale:

Very nice so far (I'm into track 3 or 4)

All music by either of the Marks. Two great players, and they seem to be able to forget their egos and create some nice bass-ical soundscapes on the way.

[Guest Chaney]

Wow! Sweet threads! I only wish I dressed with such sartorial taste and elegance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks for the link, John. Reading now.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gads! I'm having a first listen to Fibres (Potlatch) which is Stehane Rives alone on soprano sax. On my crappy office sytem, my ears are about to explode, what with the incredibly high pitch being played. I can only imagine (and may only imagine!) what this one will sound like on my home system. Please oh please don't let the remainder of this disk be as painful as track one!

Edited September 1, 2005 by Chaney

[Д.Д.]

Gads!  I'm having a first listen to Fibres (Potlatch) which is Stehane Rives alone on soprano sax.  On my crappy office sytem, my ears are about to explode, what with the incredibly high pitch being played.  I can only imagine (and may only imagine!) what this one will sound like on my home system.

←

Heh-heh, I also couldn't finish this one ("finish"?! - I barely started when I decided I would not be able to last for too long with this one). Sine waves these are not, so I do plan to revisit it one day.

[Guest Chaney]

No pain, no gain... I guess.

I feel that I can be quite accepting of these sounds except when man is trying to sound like machine. That -- as of right now -- I don't understand.

Edited September 1, 2005 by Chaney

[king ubu]

Gads!  I'm having a first listen to Fibres (Potlatch) which is Stehane Rives alone on soprano sax.  On my crappy office sytem, my ears are about to explode, what with the incredibly high pitch being played.  I can only imagine (and may only imagine!) what this one will sound like on my home system.

←

Heh-heh, I also couldn't finish this one ("finish"?! - I barely started when I decided I would not be able to last for too long with this one). Sine waves these are not, so I do plan to revisit it one day.

←

Now this makes me want to play it! Pity I don't have it here. Have you heard some of those very very out Lacy recordings from the seventies? I've read bad things about some of them... can't remember what exactly those albums were, but I once had three or four LPs from some friend... immediately thought of them when reading Tony's post!

Still playing that Marks disc here, and it is indeed very nice! The do grooves, they do "beautiful" stuff (like right now both of them bowing), and I like it quite some!

Btw, has anyone heard this one?

Got it from a fellow big-O poster who thought it was a bit too much on the ratty side for his tastes... I'm not a VDMK nay sayer and had no exposure to Morris (but do remeber the fabulous reviews of his hatOLOGY duo with Matt Shipp), so...

Also got this weird disc:

A french diseuse kind of singer backed by the Art Ensemble, with Leo Smith, Jenny-Clark, and a few others. Liked it quite some upon a first listen.

[Д.Д.]

Gads!  I'm having a first listen to Fibres (Potlatch) which is Stehane Rives alone on soprano sax.  On my crappy office sytem, my ears are about to explode, what with the incredibly high pitch being played.  I can only imagine (and may only imagine!) what this one will sound like on my home system.

←

Heh-heh, I also couldn't finish this one ("finish"?! - I barely started when I decided I would not be able to last for too long with this one). Sine waves these are not, so I do plan to revisit it one day.

←

Now this makes me want to play it! Pity I don't have it here. Have you heard some of those very very out Lacy recordings from the seventies? I've read bad things about some of them... can't remember what exactly those albums were, but I once had three or four LPs from some friend... immediately thought of them when reading Tony's post!

←

Well friends, I have a cofession to make - there are a few Lacy records I can hardly listen to due to the sound of his soprano.

Quite a few.

Solo ones in particular.

[Д.Д.]

No pain, no gain... I guess.

I feel that I can be quite accepting of these sounds except when man is trying to sound like machine.  That -- as of right now -- I don't understand.

←

No try, no fail - as you now.

Speaking of which, I see that Ms. Leandre's "Concerto grosso" is available at indiejazz for very reasonable $18 (this is a double CD): http://www.indiejazz.com/ProductDetailsVie...x?ProductID=757

Speaking of which some more, I had very unfocused listen to Lacy / Leandre duo One more time (Leo), and found it not too exciting. More listenig to ensue.

More - Ms. Leandre's duo with Derek Bailey No waiting (Pot"hell"latch) is not bad at all. Actually, it is good. I still feel that Bailey is not really listening and/or responding to his musical partners, just keeps doing his thing (not to mention apparent randomness of what he is playing, but Nate persuaded me that this is just my perception ); and Leandre is doing her thing (or a lot of things, to be correct). But there's plenty to enjoy here even with not much musical interaction - not least very clear sound quality, and simply theatrical drama of Leandre's playing.

Edited September 2, 2005 by Д.Д.

[Guest Chaney]

ubu: Funny Rat Party Line: We are less than enthused over the talents of Joe Morris.

[Guest]

A french diseuse kind of singer backed by the Art Ensemble, with Leo Smith, Jenny-Clark, and a few others. Liked it quite some upon a first listen.

Yes, this is a nice one, I like it much better than those with Fontella Bass

Well friends, I have a cofession to make - there are a few Lacy records I can hardly listen to due to the sound of his soprano.

Quite a few.

Solo ones in particular.

Hey David, have you heard Clinkers? There are solo ones and solo ones

While Gokhan is not posting more of his impressions from Mulhouse, here is a short but wild flick from Barry Guy's Orchestra perfomance (3,4 Mb; Beware it's lo-fi - but Mats is visible in all his glory

Edited September 1, 2005 by sashabur

[Д.Д.]

Well friends, I have a cofession to make - there are a few Lacy records I can hardly listen to due to the sound of his soprano.

Quite a few.

Solo ones in particular.

Hey David, have you heard Clinkers? There are solo ones and solo ones

While Gokhan is not posting more of his impressions from Mulhouse, here is a short but wild flick from Barry Guy's Orchestra perfomance (3,4 Mb)

←

Clinkers is great.

[Д.Д.]

For the bass lovers among us... (David?) - I picked this up two days ago, dirt-cheap in a sale:

Very nice so far (I'm into track 3 or 4)

All music by either of the Marks. Two great players, and they seem to be able to forget their egos and create some nice bass-ical soundscapes on the way.

←

I am eyeing this for some time now. Will get it eventually, of course.

[Д.Д.]

New Leo Records releases.

I do plan to buy some of those, as well as other Leo issues - despite a certain controvercy surrounding Leo practices (see a couple of pages up).

I very much share Tony's concern for the rights of musicians, but the conclusion I make is that creative muscians are grown-up people who just as all other people should understand the weigh of their actions. If more and more musicians chose to go with Leo records (as it seems to happen; both new and return artists), then this is the best option of those avialable to them (and there is definitely enough resources out there to make a well-informed decision about various options). If this is their deliberate choice, I am not going to have any moral torments about it.

[Guest Chaney]

Speaking of the music "business," here's an exchange from Bay Area New Music (BA-NEWMUS):

Going rates for experimental music performers?

I am curious what sort of rates people are currently paying/receiving for

work on experimental music recordings?  I know a lot of the time musicians

in our little new-music community don't get paid much (if anything) for

their work, and recording projects often don't have a lot of funds behind

them, but I'd like to believe that it's not always the case.

thanks.

-Amar

I'm guessing you mean the going rate for playing as a musician on recordings? I feel that $100 in work or trade is a respectful amount to offer studio musicians who come in to my studio to work on any kind of recording. That is what I recommend to people as a going rate for 2-4 hours of work. Union scale is I think around $350 for a 3-hour session, but in my experience that only applies to big budget projects.

I get $60 - 75 an hour for my recording and mastering work on other people's recording projects.

Myles Boisen

So far my experience is that the degree to which nobody has money is pretty

extreme, so if you contribute to experimental music recordings, you might be

asked to contribute some money towards cd production costs.

In general, this is a good question though. If someone contributes an

instrument or two on a track or two of your solo cd, how much should you pay

'em? Does it matter if you're not likely to "break even" on cd sales?

Matt Davignon

I think i'm making somewhere in the NEGATIVE several

thousands a year.

;-)

lance

p.s. - unfortunately, i'm not really joking.

some of the "bigger" labels pay $500+ a person. normally these days you

will get cds, or as matt said end up paying some. breaking even or

making money on cds requires a lot of skill. over the years the cds

might sell, but the $12 at time on tours goes to food/gas whatever.  i

might sell enough cds at gigs and on my site each month to pay my pg &

e bill, and maybe a few dinners,  but it rarely ends up helping my

rent.

people with good financial discipline could keep it separate and after

some years have their money back and maybe more.

damon smith

Title: Re: going rates and sausages

I like Myles’s suggestion. However, sometimes it’s impossible to pay the musicians even that much, especially if you’re doing large, large groups like Scott Rosenberg, Moe!, and I have done (unless, of course, there’s grant money in your budget). For large sessions on no budget, I’ve tried to provide food and drinks so at least the musicians get to eat well and enjoy the recording experience on more than one level. I’ve heard this is how it works in Indonesia at recording sessions: food is part of the payment.

I think it’s important when the food is more than just pizza and bottled water, but that’s just me.

But if you can pay anything, even a $25 honoraium as a token of your appreciation and respect, it’s helpful. Especially now that gas prices are rising...

That’s my $0.02.

Gino Robair

Yep, thats my new going rate: SAUSAGES.

Notice the "s". That means a minimum of two.

Will negotiate for proper condiments.

lance

I'd like to give Amar a serious response, but it's hard without opening

a whole can of worms.

The $500 Damon mentioned is incredibly rare - I can only think of one

guy who would pay that

for experimental music - and the incidence of that kind of recording

project is also incredibly

rare.  Too bad Zorn (basically non-profit) can't record everybody. 

When he asks you to produce,

though, you end up just breaking even - he wants a quality recording

(which is expensive for acoustic

music) and he insists you compensate your musicians well.  If it's

something you plan on releasing

yourself, Myle's suggestion of $100 seems fair.  I add that if a real

label picks it up, they get a

second payment.  I've spent a lot of money recording on spec (for all

kinds of music/sound effects) and

never got it back.  With the relatively tiny audience for these types

of recordings and the daunting

distribution logistics (thank goodness for internet possibilities),

many of us are not turning out

CDs.  It's a full time job that won't make up for quitting your day

job.  (Thank goodness for the

artists-with-trust-funds that can turn out CDs and pay the rest of us

the $100 plus compensation.)

Though with no planned CD release, I have continued to record things

sporadically as projects.

Like everybody else, I ask my friends, who understand I have no budget

and am already putting out

for the studio, to do it gratis.  I will give the drummer (or others

with big cartage) an honorarium,

and provide some refreshments.  If I'm flush, everyone gets an

honorarium (Gino's $25) and the big

cartage more.  Again, I make it understood that if I ever sell it,

they'll get a taste.  I have not

been paid for the majority of recordings I've made.  They've mostly

been for friends as well, and I

know they haven't (and most likely never will) make a profit.

The uncomfortable thing to confront is: why are you doing it?  Are you

participating without pay out

of sympathy, or would your ego like more recording credits?  Does your

ego compel you to spend your

hard earned money (and baby does need a new pair of shoes) to put out a

CD so you can have a presence

as a serious artist.  (I was going to say so you can live out your

fantasy of being a serious artist,

but that hurts too much.)  Musical artists in this field aren't

anointed; they're self made.  The

marketplace can't see far down enough to confer that title.  There's

way too much product out there

for the odd-somewhat-respected magazine to weed through and discover

what a genius you are.  You have

to be prepared to spend even more energy, time and money than it took

to record the project to get it

out there.  Is it going to be worth it, or is the time better spent

playing for real?

I was just in the middle of thinking up a response to a request for $$

to help produce a CD I played

on for free when this subject came up.  I think we should just go

straight to live streaming improv.

David Slusser

Thanks for all the responses, serious and otherwise.

Most of the numbers quoted seem in line with what I thought - just good to

do a reality check now and then.

As for "why am i doing it?": the quick answer would be "I don't really

feel like I have a choice in the matter."   Plus, I've done so much of

the work already in a series of "bursts" over the last couple of years.

However, it has been more of a background task, with time-sensitive

performance and composition opportunities usually taking precendence, not

to mention my day job...

Dare I now ask the indie vs. label question, since it has come up on this

thread?

-Amar

This looks like it could lead to a discussion of "why put out a cd, and the

art of creating a nice recorded product". That being a subject I tend to be

very opinionated on, I'd enjoy seeing what people say about that as well,

especially folks with a lot of experience in this field, and any folks who

happen to be at the receiving end of many cd's.

Matt Davignon

Edited September 1, 2005 by Chaney

[Guest Chaney]

"Dare I now ask the indie vs. label question, since it has come up on this thread?"

what question (or questions) might that be? lots on

the list here either run their own tiny labels or have

had dealings with little labels over the years. ask

away.

lance

Reading through this thread, I have a couple thoughts:

1) It's a good idea to pay people when you can, but it's even more

important to find people who are willing to do it for what you can pay.  So

if your budget is nothing, be up front about it.  And as a player, if you

can't afford the gas to get over there for the session, be up front about

that.  I think the point is to be honest about things.

2) As mentioned, it's very expensive to get good quality acoustic audio

recorded.  One thing you might be able to offer if you are arranging a

session is a chance for someone to record some solo material during the

studio time.  Similarly, there are electronics people on this list who

would love to have some good quality source material from the acoustic

players here.  Trying to gather a small library of source materials for

this kind of linear collaboration could be a cool web project for someone

with more server space than they can use up...

3) The question of why bother comes up.  I think the answer gets into the

whole Attali thing about what the predominant music force is in this era,

the object.  I don't think we're quite past that point yet, but it's

coming.  Personally, I love the object, and I like listening to it, reading

the liner notes, shopping for it, keeping track of it, etc. I also misuse

the object DIRECTLY to make more music, but I'm a somewhat unique case there.

All those things remain true, but I also look forward to musical phenomena

being so decentralized and multivalent than there is always more great

music available to me, being made live for my enjoyment, than I can listen

to.  When that occurs, things will shift back the other direction and the

fixed recording will become a museum piece for people who are using it's

unique qualities as a critical part of their art form, instead of the

dominant paradigm.

Bob Boster

I enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on the subject of

recording/expenses, etc. Here's my 2 cents, and they come from my

experience, such as it is.

1) Sharing recording costs: If it's a "group" that is recording "their

music", and everyone is behind the group and its future, then I think

it's important that everyone contribute to all possible recording and

promotional costs.

That connects to the question of "why put it out?" At this point, with

more than a dozen releases with my name on it, I don't feel a need to

have more stuff out there just because the bins at Amoeba are running

low on my stuff. If I want to put something out at this point, it is

because I belong to a group, and that group has plans to stay together

and perform locally and tour. This is especially true with the touring

thing - that is mainly where my CDs sell - on the road. I've been a part

of the local new music furniture around here for some time now, and the

novelty of the new kid on the block has worn off. My CDs don't seem to

sell as quickly as they did 10 years ago. CDs also come in handy for

booking gigs and tours and if you can get your stuff out there and have

reviewers write about it, and get radio to play your stuff, well all of

that helps you, especially on the touring side of things.

With a group like the Lost Trio (OK, I've gone outside of "new music"

here, but this still applies I think), we've been around for 11 years,

and similar to a group like ROVA (philosophically speaking, not

musically) we think it's important to document the growth trajectory of

our evolving music. That band also continues to go on the road and we

usually sell quite a lot of discs when we do.

2) In cases where I want to record a project and produce it myself, I

have tried to pay the musicians I am working with. By the time I

recorded Russian Notebooks with Covered Pages, I had asked Vinny and

Nels and GE to play a lot of gigs over the period of a few years where

we didn't make any money to speak of. At that point, I didn't feel I

should ask them to dedicate two full days of planting themselves in the

studio without compensating them (although Nels, of course, said I

didn't have to pay him, but I did anyway). Although different people in

that band have contributed to the musical direction over the years, it

is a group called "Phillip Greenlief & Covered Pages", I have to take

the role of band leader seriously - for all intents and purposes it's my

project.

Anyway, when we recorded, I paid each of them $100 a day and we spent

two days in the studio, so everyone got $200, and in addition I gave

each of them a box of CDs (30 units) to sell at their gigs or to give

away at their discretion. So if they were to sell all 30 units at $10 or

$15 a piece, they had an opportunity to make another $300+ on the deal.

At that point (1999) I had known them for a long time and they had all

given me so much support in so many ways, I wanted to be as generous as

I could afford to be - and since they live in LA and I live up here, it

seemed like if they sold those CDs at their gigs down there or out on

the road it wouldn't hurt my local CD sales. When we did our "CD release

party" down there, I took all the money from the CD sales...they were

fine with that...and if I remember, that's the most money I ever made

from CD sales at a single gig. Sometimes if you're generous, it comes

back to you.

Phillip Greenlief

Edited September 1, 2005 by Chaney

[Д.Д.]

"Dare I now ask the indie vs. label question, since it has come up on this thread?"

[...]

←

Interesting (if not too optimistic) read.

Curiously enough I just listened for the first time to Phillip Greenlief's solo Stalking Andrei (Evander), and the first impression is not so positive: these are mostly compositions (by Roscoe Mitchell, Joelle Leandre, Frank Gratkowski, Pauline Oliveros, Greenlief himself and others), and despite Greenlief's unquestionable excellent chops and no shortage of ideas, it is all just too dry, academis and somewhere more on the practice exercise level. Negative impression was exacerbated due to the fact that I was listening to John Butcher's brillaint Thirteen friendly numbers on and on for last three days.

For Greenlief, I would highly recommend his Lost Trio recordings - much morein the mainstream vein, though.

[Guest Chaney]

Listening to Stalking Andrei right now.

While music isn't a competition, MAN is it difficult to listen to this after having feasted on Butcher's music.

[Д.Д.]

Listening to Stalking Andrei right now.

While music isn't a competition, MAN is it difficult to listen to this after having feasted on Butcher's music.

←

The short Roscoe Mitchell piece is the one I liked the most, and that l o o o o o n g g g g g g Pauline Oliveros track is just overkill.

Edited September 1, 2005 by Д.Д.

[Guest Chaney]

I'm in the middle (oh god! please let it be at least the middle!) of the Oliveros piece right now.

I think you've nailed it correctly: all just too dry, academic and somewhere more on the practice exercise level.

Not much muscle or drive in his playing on this one. Too little determination.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

just another murder : music by dave douglas : film by roscoe 'fatty' arbuckle

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Listening to Phillip Greenlief / Trevor Dunn (Evander Music). Very nice. Greenlief really shines when performing in this more mainstream style.

Edited September 2, 2005 by Chaney

[Guest]

do new releases count as recommendations?

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=21653

thanks.

[Д.Д.]

do new releases count as recommendations?

http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=21653

thanks.

←

Great to see Soseditions following up with a new release - the first release (DOneda/Wright/Nakatani) was fantastic.

My only exposure to Meehan's music is his duo with Sachiko M which I did not have the nerves of listening to for longer than 3 minutes - beacuse of Ms. Sachiko's sine waves, though. Would be interested to hear what meehan is about alone.

At the same time, I am not sure I will jump on this new release immidiately - $31 (plus "small post fee") is probably not what I am willing to pay for a CD, even a double one.

[gnhrtg]

While Gokhan is not posting more of his impressions from Mulhouse, here is a short but wild flick from Barry Guy's Orchestra perfomance (3,4 Mb; Beware it's lo-fi - but Mats is visible in all his glory

←

Yes, well, I had seen a friend from Sweden there who takes and took lots of pictures in each concert, with a tripod and was going wait for a week or so so that he could sift through and send me the better pictures. Anyway, I guess I can always post those later along with (even) more comments on the concerts. I will get to work tonight.

Meanwhile, for those who have heard the band's earlier output, I've been listening to disc 1 of Atomic's The Bikini Tapes (3 disc set of live material on Jazzland, recorded mostly last year, iirc, and quite a part of which comes from a concert I attended in last year's Kongsberg Jazz Festival) and overall, I enjoy it more than either of their earlier (studio) albums. Ljungkvist, in particular, and Broo - neither of whom I'd really been fond of in this context - acquit themselves very well.