The King Oliver Thread

[TedR]

This is the kind of discussion that helps me listen and hear MUCH better. Thanks to all.

[Chuck Nessa]

Fun for me too. Good to get the juices going.

[Larry Kart]

There are thin, but essential lines between growing a living music, playing within a style and grave robbing.

These are all very different things.

And there's a fourth different thing (or maybe it would be a special case under Chuck's "growing a living music") -- a la Dallwitz and some others of that generation of Australians, falling in love with an older style or styles and inventing some music that's kind of in the style of but is essentially new, expressive of your own reality, and as rich in purely musical terms as, say, the best of Morton. Sounds damn unlikely, but it happened. May never happen again, not until and if we colonize other planets or galaxies (or vice versa).

Now you are talking about developments within "playing within a style". This is not too far removed from the "HIP" classical movement.

If you want to be kind, you can call it "neo-something" but it is still a sort of nostalgia thing.

I don't think of Dallwitz's "Ern Malley Suite" that way, for one, and it's not the only such thing from those vintage Down Under people. Isolated stuff, arguably (it has its day and goes away), and also the product of a certain kind of geographical/cultural isolation (and thus at least potentially free from the trappings of nostalgia) that may not exist on the planet anymore. The best of what they created is not imitative, though, or so it seems to me.

I agree about the HIP analogy -- if you believe, as many do, that one of the semi-hidden goals of the HIP movement (semi-hidden even from many of its practitioners) was to create in effect a new "old" music as much as it was to discover how that old music really was (and thus ought to be) played, which was the cover story. But I can think of so many annoying or boring HIP performances and nothing from that realm that's as musically creative as Dallwitz or Ade Monsborough or Bill Munro. Also, the HIP performances that really work for me pretty much work in about the same ways as really good non-HIP performances do. They get "informed," and then they still have to just play.

[Chuck Nessa]

I don't think of Dallwitz's "Ern Malley Suite" that way, for one, and it's not the only such thing from those vintage Down Under people. Isolated stuff, arguably (it has its day and goes away), and also the product of a certain kind of geographical/cultural isolation (and thus at least potentially free from the trappings of nostalgia) that may not exist on the planet anymore. The best of what they created is not imitative, though, or so it seems to me.

I disagree. Geography/isolation is not relevant. We [at least I) are talking about something else. Location don't matter to the "music".

[Larry Kart]

I don't think of Dallwitz's "Ern Malley Suite" that way, for one, and it's not the only such thing from those vintage Down Under people. Isolated stuff, arguably (it has its day and goes away), and also the product of a certain kind of geographical/cultural isolation (and thus at least potentially free from the trappings of nostalgia) that may not exist on the planet anymore. The best of what they created is not imitative, though, or so it seems to me.

I disagree. Geography/isolation is not relevant. We [at least I) are talking about something else. Location don't matter to the "music".

FWIW, that's not Terry's point of view in his chapter on jazz in Australia and Canada in "The Oxford Companion To Jazz." Don't have it to hand right now, but I'll look for it and quote/summarize some unless you already know it because his POV makes sense to me. In particular, his argument is that Australia's geographical and cultural distance from the U.S. and relative lack of contact with recordings and visiting U.S. musicians in the '30s, then explosive contact with U.S. military personnel in the war years (which were in any case a time of much stress/upheaval in Australian society), plus pre-existing oddities in Australian culture ("oddities" is not the right word, but I'm tired), stoked the development of a music that was Revivalist in one sense but quite new in another -- and not really similar in P.O.V. or musical quality to the Revivalist movement in the U.S., in part because in Australia in the '40s this music became part of the society's "cutting edge," culturally, artistically, even politically, in much the same way bop was in the U.S. To be, say, Ade Monsborough and transmorgrify Tesch, Dodds, et al. into something rich and strange was to express who Ade was in his world in ways that were not open to any U.S. trad player of the time in his world, as far as I know. Was Ade more talented than, say, Ellis Horne? Yes, but it's more than that. Was Ade more talented than Bob Wilber or, later on, Kenny Davern? Maybe not, maybe so, but Ade was almost unavoidably playing his life by playing the way he did, and the reason he was had a lot to do with the cultural situation he was in. You can see it at work the other way around too, as quite striking/quirky (when young) Aussie figures like trumpeter Bob Barnard move to Sydney to become bland recording industry "pros," sounding like maybe Rusty Dedrick. As for Canada, its geographical and cultural proximity to the U.S. virtually precluded the development there of any distinctively different from the U.S. ways of playing jazz. When talented Canadian players arose (Oscar Peterson, Maynard Ferguson, etc.), they soon become (in most cases) part of a U.S. scene that they already in effect belonged to.

[johnlitweiler]

Jeff is so right about the rewards of this music. But for all his NewO expatriates, Oliver's band refined their style here in Chicago and may have even formed it here. Oliver & co. pre-1923 must have sounded different. For one thing, note the violinist in the 1921 photo -- he would have repeated the melody lines over and over while the others played their embellishments and variations. (That's what he did in the original Creole Band.) Bud Freeman claimed jazz was actually born in Chicago because the NewO players who came here got their musics together here. After you take a grain of salt, consider how much truth there may be in his words.

A few more things:

1. The second group of Oliver OKehs (c. Oct. 25-26) used to have the best sound of the Oliver sessions in reissues -- what part did Richard M. Jones play in the production of those? Did he have any say in how the engineers set up the st udio? An amazing feature of the Off The Record collection is the sound quality of the Paramounts, which were previously hard to listen to. The balance varies from session to session, and I still haven't heard the melody of Weather Bird (Gennet, April 6). That's not a criticism of Off The Record, of course.

2. The OKeh Riverside Blues and Working Man Blues are surely among the most beautiful of all blues ever played, along with Morton's Peppers Original Jelly Roll (the originally released take) and Yancey's At The Window.

3. In the Dixie Syncopators' version of Someday Sweetheart, Johnny Dodds' chorus is a perfect example of what jazz is -- you could almost derive a definition of the idiom from that solo. Dodds' sound is so distinctive, his inflections and rhythm are so incisive, his small variations are so subtle -- this is expression that exists in no other kind of music. Interesting that the 1923 band recorded Someday Sweetheart but it was never released. Is the 1926 version a variation of the Creole Band's arrangement?

4. As I sd in my review, if any jazz has ever been profound, some of these 1923 Olivers are -- those 2 OKeh blues for their beauty, the OKeh Mabel's Dream for its interplay, pieces like Just Gone, Snake Rag, Chattanooga, Buddy's Habits for sustained intensity, the OKeh Dippermouth for the inspired Armstrong choruses that frame Oliver's solo. Etc. I mean 'profound' in its original life-enriching sense -- over the last 40 years it keeps getting applied to all kinds of rock music, pop literature, politicians' spewings, etc, but I hope I can use the word again and be understood.

[jeffcrom]

But for all his NewO expatriates, Oliver's band refined their style here in Chicago and may have even formed it here. Oliver & co. pre-1923 must have sounded different.... Bud Freeman claimed jazz was actually born in Chicago because the NewO players who came here got their musics together here. After you take a grain of salt, consider how much truth there may be in his words.

Good point. My guess is that the basic style was established by the time Oliver came north, but that it tightened and "toughened" up in Chicago. A. J. Piron's wonderful 1923 recordings may be instructive, although that was a somewhat different type of band. They were smoother and more polite, with more emphasis on the written melody - but they did tend to loosen up during the last chorus or two on their records. Anyone who can find it should read Dr. Edmond Souchon's "King Oliver: A Very Personal Memoir," which was published in The Jazz Review and reprinted in Martin Williams' Jazz Panorama. His description of Oliver's band at Tulane dances makes them sound as if they played in a style similar to Piron's on those occasions. It may be impossible to unravel the early development of Oliver's style at this point, but it's fun to speculate.

I really enjoyed your post.

[carnivore]

The fact that so much good jazz actually comes through the on early Olivers - in spite of Baby Dodds being unable to use most of his kit, the bass player deemed not to be recordable and therefore omitted and the sense that the band was on its 'best behaviour' and undoubtedly a bit overawed by the recording opportunity and process - indicates what an unforgettable and exciting band it must have been when fully equippped and not restrained by the limitations of the acoustic recording studio.

[Christiern]

I have changed the link to a direct one. Once you get there, you will find further links that a relevant.

Lil Hardin on Oliver

Edited March 2, 2012 by Christiern

[Niko]

Lil Hardin on Oliver.

bookmark set excellent idea, have been missing your thread ... thank you!

[johnlitweiler]

Fascinating, Chris -- thank you. Did she discuss her Decca recordings too?

[AllenLowe]

re-Oliver, the most personally revealing thing I have ever seen is in Clyde Bernhardt's autobiography - Oliver is generally sort of a musical/social stick figure (I haven't read the Lil Hardin thing yet) - Bernhardt worked with one of his later bands, and Oliver comes off as real salty and salt of the earth, mildly profane, extremely shrewd, and a very self aware personality -

if anyone here has not read the Bernhardt bio, btw, I recommend it in general as one of the best jazz books I've ever read. It also has an incredible description of an early Ma Rainey tent show.

[AllenLowe]

just to add, much as I like the early Oliver band, my favorite New Orleans band, by far, is Dumaine's Jazzola Eight.

Edited July 31, 2009 by AllenLowe

[Chuck Nessa]

Maybe you should start a Louis Metcalf thread.

[jeffcrom]

just to add, much as I like the early Oliver band, my favorite New Orleans band, by far, is Dumaine's Jazzola Eight.

Hmmm.... Everyone's taste and ear is different, but I wouldn't put Dumaine's band in the same league as Oliver's Creole Jazz Band. Based on the records, they were good, but to me the depth of Oliver's band is just not there. Dumaine himself doesn't really swing, even in a pre-Armstrong way, for one thing. Among New Orleans bands of that era, I would take Sam Morgan's eight recordings (warts and all) to a desert island after Oliver's. But to each his own.

That being said, the late Dick Allen was in awe of Earl Humphrey's trombone solo on "I Haven't Got a Dollar to Pay the House Rent Man" by Genevieve Davis and Dumaine's band.

I'm with you on the Bernhardt book.

[flat5]

Thanks, Allen.

Just signed up and did my first Ebay order.

"I Remember" by Clyde Bernhardt, Sheldon Harris (1986)

$3 (+ $13 shipping...ggrrrr)

[jeffcrom]

Almost three years later, I thought it was time to revisit this thread and talk about Oliver's Victor recordings.

Oliver recorded for Victor in 1929 and 1930 - 33 wildly inconsistent sides, plus alternate takes, by what was considered a big band at the time (usually three brass, three reeds, and a four-piece rhythm section). Oliver's dental problems didn't even allow him to play on the first three sessions, but he solos frequently on subsequent dates. His playing is old-fashioned for the time, and sometimes slightly flat, but is surprisingly strong - many of his solos were attributed to his second trumpeter, Dave Nelson, for years, on the assumption that Oliver would have been technically incapable of playing them.

There are plenty of lame tunes among the Victor recordings - "Everybody Does It In Hawaii" is about as bad as it sounds, and there are some that are even worse, like "What's the Use of Living Without Your Love?" That one's painful.

But the best of the Victors are excellent. They're not state-of-the-art - Ellington and Henderson were way hipper than Oliver by this point, and Oliver's band didn't swing in as modern a way as many bands of the time. But they combined a two-beat "rock" with a touch of New Orleans sweetness in a way that I love. The best of Oliver's Victors would have to include:

What Do You Want Me to Do?

Sweet Like This

Too Late

New Orleans Shout

I Must Have It

Rhythm Club Stomp

Boogie Woogie

Mule Face Blues

Struggle Buggy

Shake It and Break It

Stingaree Blues

There are a couple of ringers in the trumpet section at times - Bubber Miley plays on the otherwise forgettable "St. James Infirmary." The great Henry "Red" Allen's avant-garde trumpet contrasts brilliantly with Oliver's horn on several of the later recordings, particularly "Mule Face Blues," "Shake It and Break It," and "Stingaree Blues."

But even on the weaker tunes, there are sometimes excellent solos - by young Hilton Jefferson and the lesser-known Glyn Paque on alto, Jimmy Archey on trombone, and Oliver himself. This band ain't the Creole Jazz Band of 1923, but I love these recordings anyway. They're a worthy part of Oliver's legacy. The whole lot, except for one alternate take, has been issued by JSP as King Oliver and His Orchestra 1929-1939, and the RCA/Bluebird CD The New York Sessions (1929-1930) (now out of print) collected all the sides on which Oliver soloed - it's got most of the best tracks (and the alternate of "Olga" that's not on the JSP). I think that Frog has also reissued the Victor sides, but I don't have those CDs.

Edited March 2, 2012 by jeffcrom

[Clunky]

Thanks Jeff for your insights, I've taken great pleasure re- reading the whole thread and digging out what Oliver I have. No Vocalions/Brunswick material but i'm judging that it's less than essential.

[jeffcrom]

Thanks Jeff for your insights, I've taken great pleasure re- reading the whole thread and digging out what Oliver I have. No Vocalions/Brunswick material but i'm judging that it's less than essential.

Overall, not essential, but there are a handful of them that I would hate to be without, like "Snag It," "Too Bad," "Jackass Blues," "Wa Wa Wa," and "Someday Sweetheart."

Also wanted to point out that one of Oliver's best blues accompaniments is not on the Frog/Okeh CD mentioned by Chuck. It's Sara Martin's "Death Sting Me Blues," recorded for the QRS label in 1928. I have it on an old Milestone album, and it's on volume 4 of Martin's complete series on Document. Otherwise, it's going to be hard to find, except as a download.

Edited March 2, 2012 by jeffcrom

[Neal Pomea]

Thanks Jeff for your insights, I've taken great pleasure re- reading the whole thread and digging out what Oliver I have. No Vocalions/Brunswick material but i'm judging that it's less than essential.

Overall, not essential, but there are a handful of them that I would hate to be without, like "Snag It," "Too Bad," "Jackass Blues," "Wa Wa Wa," and "Someday Sweetheart."

Also wanted to point out that one of Oliver's best blues accompaniments is not on the Frog/Okeh CD mentioned by Chuck. It's Sara Martin's "Death Sting Me Blues," recorded for the QSR label in 1928. I have it on an old Milestone album, and it's on volume 4 of Martin's complete series on Document. Otherwise, it's going to be hard to find, except as a download.

I had better check the credits again but I believe the Sara Martin Death Sting Me Blues is on a Clarence Williams Frog cd, QRS volume 2:

http://www.frogrecords.co.uk/_pages/dgf49.htm

Or if the Frog website is down again, there is this on Amazon:

I picked up maybe 5 of these Frog cds in the past week or two.

Edited March 2, 2012 by Neal Pomea

[jeffcrom]

I hope you're right, Neal! And I hope Frog will issue a set of Oliver's sideman appearances on Columbia, like they did for Okeh.

(And I transposed a couple of letters in the name of the QRS record company - corrected in my post.)

[johnlitweiler]

A Lester Young biography says that during the 6 months Pres played in the Oliver band, ca. early 1930s, Oliver encouraged him to stretch out as much as he wanted. So Pres would play 12 choruses of "I Got Rhythm" and "Tiger Rag." I would sell my soul to hear a recording of what the young Young sounded like then. (today's pipe dream)

Ironic that the Oliver Dixie Syncopators transmogrified into the Luis Russell band, which transmogrified into the very swinging Louis Armstrong big band. Oliver seemed to have the luck, or the business sense, of a Morton.

[paul secor]

Almost three years later, I thought it was time to revisit this thread and talk about Oliver's Victor recordings.

Oliver recorded for Victor in 1929 and 1930 - 33 wildly inconsistent sides, plus alternate takes, by what was considered a big band at the time (usually three brass, three reeds, and a four-piece rhythm section). Oliver's dental problems didn't even allow him to play on the first three sessions, but he solos frequently on subsequent dates. His playing is old-fashioned for the time, and sometimes slightly flat, but is surprisingly strong - many of his solos were attributed to his second trumpeter, Dave Nelson, for years, on the assumption that Oliver would have been technically incapable of playing them.

There are plenty of lame tunes among the Victor recordings - "Everybody Does It In Hawaii" is about as bad as it sounds, and there are some that are even worse, like "What's the Use of Living Without Your Love?" That one's painful.

But the best of the Victors are excellent. They're not state-of-the-art - Ellington and Henderson were way hipper than Oliver by this point, and Oliver's band didn't swing in as modern a way as many bands of the time. But they combined a two-beat "rock" with a touch of New Orleans sweetness in a way that I love. The best of Oliver's Victors would have to include:

What Do You Want Me to Do?

Sweet Like This

Too Late

New Orleans Shout

I Must Have It

Rhythm Club Stomp

Boogie Woogie

Mule Face Blues

Struggle Buggy

Shake It and Break It

Stingaree Blues

There are a couple of ringers in the trumpet section at times - Bubber Miley plays on the otherwise forgettable "St. James Infirmary." The great Henry "Red" Allen's avant-garde trumpet contrasts brilliantly with Oliver's horn on several of the later recordings, particularly "Mule Face Blues," "Shake It and Break It," and "Stingaree Blues."

But even on the weaker tunes, there are sometimes excellent solos - by young Hilton Jefferson and the lesser-known Glyn Paque on alto, Jimmy Archey on trombone, and Oliver himself. This band ain't the Creole Jazz Band of 1923, but I love these recordings anyway. They're a worthy part of Oliver's legacy. The whole lot, except for one alternate take, has been issued by JSP as King Oliver and His Orchestra 1929-1939, and the RCA/Bluebird CD The New York Sessions (1929-1930) (now out of print) collected all the sides on which Oliver soloed - it's got most of the best tracks (and the alternate of "Olga" that's not on the JSP). I think that Frog has also reissued the Victor sides, but I don't have those CDs.

Frog has issued two volumes of King Oliver's Victor recordings. I would bet that the Frogs are the same remasterings as appeared earlier on JSP, though I don't have the JSPs to make that comparison. Frog issued some other John R.T. Davies remasters that were originally on JSP. Iirc, the Memphis blues CDs were two of those.

[AllenLowe]

the sound on the BMG reissues of the 1929-30 Olivers, as well as the original RCA Jazz Tribunes, are fantastic. They were done from actual masters.

Edited March 2, 2012 by AllenLowe

[Christiern]

Sorry about the old link that I posted earlier on. It takes you to my blog, but not to the Lil Armstrong on Oliver input. I have corrected that, but here it is again.