Johnny Winter at Woodstock: Mean Town Blues

[kenny weir]

And then, of course, the entire "Honking Sax" tradition (I will not count King Curtis as a straight successor to that ... ). I do realize, of course, that a lot of this is a matter of personal taste and preferences and of how much of a change and evolution you are willing to lump into one and the same style.

1. Ha! I was about to cite King Curtis as excatly that.

2. Yes. To me and IMHO it's all R&B.

Some more interesting characters - and a place:

1. Rufus Thomas. To me it sounds like the differences between his '50s and '60s funkiness is more a matter of detail than substance.

2. Jimmy Reed. Downhome electric blues AND (again, IMHO), an R&B star; '50s AND '60s; and, of course a huge influence on the Brit bands.

3. New Orleans. If you contrast recordings from the '50s right through to the present that feature various members of the extended Neville family, there are big differences. But listen to New Orleans music from the '40s-'50s through to the present at a more leisurely pace and it seems/sounds utterly seamless to me.

***********

I listened to a CD of the Five Royales' King sides during my commute this morning - just about all of it I would categotsie as sanctified soul by a '50s vocal group. And I'd be REALLY surprised if there was a bigger influence on Steve Cropper than Royales guitarist Lowman Pauling.

***********

I think you'll d-g the book and, yes, wish it covered more.

***********

Jump blues? Yes, I'd say that's one sound that pratty much bit the dust come the '60s.

Edited March 1, 2010 by kenny weir

[AllenLowe]

did someone mention the FIve Royales?

one of the best bands ever -

[kenny weir]

did someone mention the FIve Royales?

one of the best bands ever -

Yup!

Some day I'm looking forward to checking out their pre- and post-King sides.

Edited March 1, 2010 by kenny weir

[John L]

Maybe this example will help: Take some typical early to mid-50s Chicago blues artist or record (or any "electric blues" from that period) and then compare it to a mid-60s Chicago/electric blues recording. The continuity is easy to grasp.

And now take an early to mid-50s jump blues artist/record and let's see what remained of that in the mid-60s with the same (relatively) limited stylistic evolution as in the case of Chicago/electric blues ... I do realize that in a way it IS nitpicking but see what I mean now?

I'm not sure of your exact definition of jump blues, but there were a number of artists who show quite strong continuity from that point of view: Ike Turner, Johnny Guitar Watson, Jimmy McCracklin, Lowell Fulson, Amos Milburn, I would say that their movement into "soul" in the 60s was more evolutionary than revolutionary. Early Rock and Roll of Little Richard, Big Joe Turner, Chuck Berry, etc. was also, to a large degree, an evolution of "jump." James Brown came partly from that territory as well.

[kenny weir]

I would say that their movement into "soul" in the 60s was more evolutionary than revolutionary.

That's the sort of relationship I'm thinking of and trying to describe (no doubt very poorly!) between R&B and soul: For me it's mostly a matter of modern continuity.

Edited March 2, 2010 by kenny weir

[John L]

I would say that their movement into "soul" in the 60s was more evolutionary than revolutionary.

That's the sort of relationship I'm thinking of and trying to describe (no doubt very poorly!) between R&B and soul: For me it's mostly a matter of modern continuity.

Yes! Soul music in the 60s was largely a fusion of R&B and gospel. It therefore contains strong elements of both. Of course, Gospel and R&B had profoundly influenced each other at earlier points in time, but had still developed on separate, but related, pathes. It is interesting that, by the late 60s, R&B (soul) and gospel had become musically almost identical. Gospel brought in the R&B elements from soul, and it became just as common for gospel artists to steal R&B songs and change the lyrics as visa versa.

Edited March 2, 2010 by John L

[Big Beat Steve]

@Kenny Weir:

I must admit after having written my last post it occurred to me that beyond vocal groups etc. it is artists like Johnny Guitar Watson and much of New Orleans R&B that support your point (though I'd say new Orleans R&B has always been a bit beyond classification and pigeonholing anyway).

[kenny weir]

I'd say new Orleans R&B has always been a bit beyond classification and pigeonholing anyway.

Very true, too. And hooray for that!

and it became just as common for gospel artists to steal R&B songs and change the lyrics as visa versa.

One of my fave gospel tracks is James Cleveland and the Charles Ford Singers doing a hair-raisingly great version of Gladys Knight's "Jesus Is The Best Thing That Ever Happened To Me".

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

And then, of course, the entire "Honking Sax" tradition (I will not count King Curtis as a straight successor to that ... ). I do realize, of course, that a lot of this is a matter of personal taste and preferences and of how much of a change and evolution you are willing to lump into one and the same style.

1. Ha! I was about to cite King Curtis as excatly that.

I absolutely agree with you there, Kenny! And the continuity continues with the James Brown band - Eldee Williams is virtualy an unreconstructed honker (but what a player on those early JB instrumentals!), but St Clair and Maceo relate more clearly to Soul, and to King Curtis. And also Pee Wee, with a Rollins influence (Sonny, not Harold ).

2. Yes. To me and IMHO it's all R&B.

Indeed. Over here, we didn't start making a distinction between R&B and Soul until well into the mid-sixties.

1. Rufus Thomas. To me it sounds like the differences between his '50s and '60s funkiness is more a matter of detail than substance.

Good call. Especially in regard to his recording of "Fine and mellow", which I lurve dearly.

3. New Orleans. If you contrast recordings from the '50s right through to the present that feature various members of the extended Neville family, there are big differences. But listen to New Orleans music from the '40s-'50s through to the present at a more leisurely pace and it seems/sounds utterly seamless to me.

Yes.

I listened to a CD of the Five Royales' King sides during my commute this morning - just about all of it I would categotsie as sanctified soul by a '50s vocal group. And I'd be REALLY surprised if there was a bigger influence on Steve Cropper than Royales guitarist Lowman Pauling.

I keep meaning to get a 5 Royales album, but never have. Is there room for a recommendation in this thread?

Jump blues? Yes, I'd say that's one sound that pratty much bit the dust come the '60s.

I think you're probably right as regards vocalists, but not instrumentally. It wasn't only Booker T & the MGs; there was a quite large bunch of R&B/Soul/Funk bands like the Mar-Keys, the Packers, Little Mac & the Boss Sounds, Don & Dewey, the Bar-Kays, Watts 103rd St Rhythm Band, Garnell Cooper & the Kinfolks, Rex Garvin & the Mighty Cravers, The (Fabulous) Counts, the Sonny Knight Quartette and quite a few others whose records have surfaced in compilations by Funky 16 Corners - and Noj has a good few more. There are a good few of these bands included in the Rhino compilation "What it is: Funky Soul and Rare Grooves", as well as quite a few jazz musicians who were recording material that really was riding both the R&B/Soul/Funk rail and the Jazz rail. And in the sixties, Latin bands emerged from roots coming from this tradition, as well as more conventional Afro-Cuban traditions - Mongo Santamaria, El Chicano, the Afro-Blues Quintet + 1, Pucho & the Latin Soul Brothers.

I hear a continuity in all this from the honkers, through the organ groups of Bill Doggett, Lorenzo Holden, Tommy Dean, Ernie Freeman, etc into the sixties bands.

There are no real boundaries in all this, just marketing initiatives

MG

[JSngry]

Has anybody ever looked at the evolution of the dances that were being danced to these musics as a part of the evolution of the music itself, including "harder" blues? I mean, it's not like this stuff was designed as concert music that people just happened to decide to start dancing to...

Edited March 2, 2010 by JSngry

[Big Beat Steve]

That would be quite a fascinating subject IMHO (and might call those to order who seem oh so intent on concert-hall type events in order to give "respectability" to the music ).

[JSngry]

I mean, there was dancing going on in those South Side clubs where all the "real" Chicago blues were getting played...

[kenny weir]

I keep meaning to get a 5 Royales album, but never have. Is there room for a recommendation in this thread?

MG, this the comp on the Ace label I have:

I confess I chose that one over several others at my bricks & mortar for the simple reason that it included I'm Gonna Run It Down, the King single I bought in an auction when I was about 15 or something. However it's a beaut 26-track anthology with greats songs and guitar.

I suspect the Monkey Hips and Rice: The "5" Royales Anthology on Rhino would be great if if you could find it.

I have yet to check out the earlier tracks on Apollo.

*********

One place where jump blues survived - surprisingly intact - into the '60s: In Las Vegas, and in the hands of Louis Prima and Sam Butera.

Edited March 2, 2010 by kenny weir

[JSngry]

One place where jump blues survived - surprisingly intact - into the '60s: In Las Vegas, and in the hands of Louis Prima and Sam Butera.

To say nothing of The Treniers.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I keep meaning to get a 5 Royales album, but never have. Is there room for a recommendation in this thread?

MG, this the comp on the Ace label I have:

I confess I chose that one over several others at my bricks & mortar for the simple reason that it included I'm Gonna Run It Down, the King single I bought in an auction when I was about 15 or something. However it's a beaut 26-track anthology with greats songs and guitar.

I suspect the Monkey Hips and Rice: The "5" Royales Anthology on Rhino would be great if if you could find it.

I have yet to check out the earlier tracks on Apollo.

*********

One place where jump blues survived - surprisingly intact - into the '60s: In Las Vegas, and in the hands of Louis Prima and Sam Butera.

Thanks very much, Kenny.

Funny the holes one has in a collection...

MG

[AllenLowe]

hey, let's get back to the skinny white guy.

[Big Beat Steve]

OK, may I add that I was decidedly unimpressed by his "John Dawson Winter III" album.

It was current at the time I got it but left me relatively cold compared to earlier stuff I had heard elsewhere so I disposed of it eventually. Maybe it was not the best starting point (but then those white blues boys of the late 60s/early 70s did not figure high on my priority list then - i.e. nice to listen to but no essential purchases compared to the "old(er) masters").

Edited March 3, 2010 by Big Beat Steve

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

hey, let's get back to the skinny white guy.

Yes, OK. Three questions.

Was the impact of the white blues/rock bands on the blues masters something that gave them an additional filip of popularity in the ghetto or did it enable them to work the white college circuit?

Which bluesmen were affected in this way?

Which white musicians produced this effect?

MG

[7/4]

OK, may I add that I was decidedly unimpressed by his "John Dawson Winter III" album.

It was current at the time I got it but left me relatively cold compared to earlier stuff I had heard elsewhere so I disposed of it eventually. Maybe it was not the best starting point (but then those white blues boys of the late 60s/early 70s did not figure high on my priority list then - i.e. nice to listen to but no essential purchases compared to the "old(er) masters").

JW's rock albums only lasted a few years before he got serious about the blues later when they started the Blue Sky label. I find those albums flawed too, but interesting because I'm such an old fan.

[AllenLowe]

"Three questions.

"Was the impact of the white blues/rock bands on the blues masters something that gave them an additional filip of popularity in the ghetto or did it enable them to work the white college circuit?"

I don't really know about money and bookings at the time with detail, but some of the black bands clearly were able to see the new popularity as a stimulus - for example, it was at Bloomfield's insistence that the Fillmore started booking BB and Albert King and Muddy Waters -

please note, however, that when I talk about influence of the new white blues rockers I am not necessarily talking about their influence on black musicians but on the whole form and format of the blues - I think that what they did was take it and give it new twists that were extremely beneficial to the music as music.

"Which bluesmen were affected in this way?"

well, the Kings, as above, Muddy - and Howlin Wolf, John Lee Hooker (who rode this whole association into the 21st century) -

"Which white musicians produced this effect?"

depends on what effect we're talking about - but among rockers, not necesarily white, I see Bloodwyn Pig as a major contributor to new blues, Bloomfield, Hendrix (and his was an avant garde rock aesthetic, welcomed by white audiences and rejected by black audiences), James Gurley, arguably Keith Richard, and of course Bo Diddley who, to me, goes back to the begnning, as a guy who was essentially a rocker and not a blues man at first, and who would not have existed but for the changes the music was going through in the middle 1950s. Also, James Burton/Dale Hawkins, Roy Buchanan, Link Wray - there's probably more.

Edited March 3, 2010 by AllenLowe

[kenny weir]

hey, let's get back to the skinny white guy.

Who?

[JSngry]

please note, however, that when I talk about influence of the new white blues rockers I am not necessarily talking about their influence on black musicians but on the whole form and format of the blues - I think that what they did was take it and give it new twists that were extremely beneficial to the music as music.

Meaning, what, that it was now able to be perceived/received as being played convincingly by white players for white audiences?

I'm confused as to how any of this "benefitted" the "blues" as music instead of as product other than giving new people new room to roam.

Then again, that's how the West was won!

[JSngry]

I mean, why the need to call it "blues", when it's obviously a pefectly legitmate rock-blues hybrid where a lot of white players found their voice, voices that were certainly informed by "blues" but who told essentially different stories than those told by several generations of what "blues" was generally accepted to be "about".

It's like making a BLT with bacon-flavored chicken and still calling it a BLT. Why the need to call that a BLT?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I mean, why the need to call it "blues", when it's obviously a pefectly legitmate rock-blues hybrid where a lot of white players found their voice, voices that were certainly informed by "blues" but who told essentially different stories than those told by several generations of what "blues" was generally accepted to be "about".

It's like making a BLT with bacon-flavored chicken and still calling it a BLT. Why the need to call that a BLT?

Obviously, for marketing reasons

I think Allen would say it's "the invisible bacon".

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

please note, however, that when I talk about influence of the new white blues rockers I am not necessarily talking about their influence on black musicians but on the whole form and format of the blues - I think that what they did was take it and give it new twists that were extremely beneficial to the music as music.

I didn't know that was what you were talking about. I thought you were talking about an influence that sharpened up the older blues players work.

So what you're actually describing is "crossover"; a phenomenon, and a process, whereby black performers can be made acceptable to the white public and make the white people who promote and record & etc this new product a shed load of money (and some for the performers, I'll concede, the amount of which will depend more on how legal/savvy the musicians are, than on whether what they now do is good, bad or indifferent).

Thanks.

MG