jazzbo Posted April 9, 2014 Report Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) Well one persons's "subpar" may not be another's if one has a flexible system. I do and I'm so glad I do. Edited April 9, 2014 by jazzbo Quote
jazzbo Posted April 9, 2014 Report Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) @jazzbo Like I said above, I'm not the type to expect electronic gear to save the day. Volkher (deus62) I don't expect electronic gear to save the day either but IF something has phase/polarity inverted, correcting it does improve the sound, reverses the treble/bass balance, restores the ambient information which defines a lot of the soundstage, etc. Sucks that these get released that way, but being able to correct it can improve enjoyment of the sound. At least it stopped me kvetching about these releases and allows me to actually use what i spent money on in these cases. ____ Absolutely valid point, certainly, but - as far as I know - reversed polarity is really the least (and altogether almost negligible) problem. Happens, but it is comparatively rare. What is common is mastering that just turns music into tin can sound. And THAT is only marginally (is that a word?) fixable. If a mastering engineer (one who was probably forced to do so ... that's why I would refuse to pile on him/her together with others) boosted the treble and applied all kinds of weird EQing to a recording there is only comparatively little you can do. Yes, I also try to make up for it by twiddling the knobs but, really, what's lost won't magically reappear. What you/I are doing is masking mastering/engineering decisions and there's only so much you can do to alleviate the problem(s) (plural, because usually there's more than one). I agree, bad mastering is a real problem. In the case of these Evans recordings in the box though I think the mastering is less at fault and the phase.polarity is incorrect and when corrected the mastering sounds decent. Anyway to me, on my system. Edited April 9, 2014 by jazzbo Quote
erwbol Posted April 9, 2014 Report Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) I gues in this day and age, when a man orders a burgundy red sweater and is sent a bright orange one, it is his fault he is not wearing the right kind of contact lenses that would cause the sweater to appear red. He should stop nitpicking since the sweater is obviously the right size anyway. Edited April 9, 2014 by erwbol Quote
neveronfriday Posted April 9, 2014 Report Posted April 9, 2014 To close this particular train of thought down: Some of the material is available in (much) better quality. The problem is that it does not include alternate takes, bonus material, etc. So, if you want it all, like I do, you're stuck with what's currently available. I just decided to refrain this time ... once burned, twice shy. And, jazzbo, the polarity is definitely not the only problem if you try to reverse it. You're still stuck with mastering that pushes the trebbly aspects and narrows the soundstage ... when the polarity is reversed, only minor deficiencies get ironed out (a minor improvement in overall sound, plus, if you are lucky, a somewhat improved soundstage). That is on my system though, and many people's much more revealing ones, decent ones, better ones and whatnot might and will differ. A last thought: Most people who buy this stuff don't have the possibilty to do anything but twist a maximum of three knobs, at best ... and that's it. All of those are stuck with sub-par mastering. So, is music produced for those who have the ability to tweak the sh*t out of stuff or for those who can't, won't and haven't even thought of doing so? One step further: Is this mastered for the "elite" (with the right system) or for the average audience? The former can live with it, perhaps, the latter has to and will simply never know better. It's the latter aspect that contributes to a decline in "artistic", "sonic" or whatever value. To be quite brunt (and, I repeat what others have said before me), if you have only seen the Mona Lisa covered in fluorescent color by some hack, you won't know what it is/was really like, will you? In the end, it's really an academic question which most people couldn't give a sh*t about. I think it is depressing that sonic deficiencies aren't even recognized anymore today. But that's a whole different train of thought. Quote
jazzbo Posted April 9, 2014 Report Posted April 9, 2014 (edited) I find the change with polarity correction more profound than you seem to if you've tried it. But regardless, I don't disagree that there's no excuse for bad mastering and that it's awful that these are put out this way. But so much is put out this way that I have decided to have choices in tube biasing, NOS or over-sampling filters of various types, upsampling or not, tube-rolling and "riding the gain" in order to enjoy as best as possible what IS put out. And this has led me to be less upset about these things and granted I enjoy futzing with things but I'm having a lot more fun with the listening than I would otherwise. What else are we going to do? We are not going to change the industry's mind, and the "audiophile" releases are never going to be comprehensive or selected as we choose. Mona Lisa? This stuff was not made to be in a museum or a cathedral. So I make no apologies for working with what I ahve and what is released. Edited April 9, 2014 by jazzbo Quote
JSngry Posted April 10, 2014 Report Posted April 10, 2014 This being Bill Evans on Verve, I had planned on listening to it in my car, maybe with even the top down. So...should I plan on driving in reverse if it sounds bad under those conditions? I just wanted some ok music at a cheap price, I didn't want to have to relearn how to drive, Should I ask for a refund once it gets here? If so, how does that work in Italian, because I'm getting bombarded (literally!) with Amazon emails in Italian, and I'm like, uh, perhaps not, please? Also, Texas not being a particularly forward looking state in any regard except legal driving position, should I stick to the toll roads, figuring that I might have a shot at the "hey, I'm paying for this drive, I can go any damn way I want to, this is TEXAS Your Honor!!!!!" argument in court and hope that my cry of desperation-induced personal liberty violations is taken seriously? I should note at this point that I do not have money to pay for an expensive attorney, just a cheap amazon.it Bill Evans Verve box. So all directives should be framed accordingly, please. Quote
MomsMobley Posted April 10, 2014 Report Posted April 10, 2014 Also, Texas not being a particularly forward looking state in any regard except legal driving position, should I stick to the toll roads, figuring that I might have a shot at the "hey, I'm paying for this drive, I can go any damn way I want to, this is TEXAS Your Honor!!!!!" argument in court and hope that my cry of desperation-induced personal liberty violations is taken seriously? Quote
Bigshot Posted April 10, 2014 Report Posted April 10, 2014 Are you talking a simple reversal of absolute phase, or is it one channel out of phase to the other? Quote
bogdan101 Posted April 15, 2014 Report Posted April 15, 2014 Evans box arrived in my mailbox today. Listening right now to disc 1 and it sounds just fine. Quote
jazzbo Posted April 15, 2014 Report Posted April 15, 2014 (edited) Are you talking a simple reversal of absolute phase, or is it one channel out of phase to the other? Not one channel out of phase with the other. I'm not sure reversing the phase makes it perfect, but it sounds better that way to me on my system. Edited April 15, 2014 by jazzbo Quote
Bigshot Posted April 15, 2014 Report Posted April 15, 2014 Absolute phase reversal should be inaudible. It's probably some sort of slight reverb filter applied to the music. It could be easily solved by simply ripping the music to true mono instead of stereo. I've found a lot of CDs, particularly on budget labels that have fake stereo phase tricks. Strapping both channels to mono fixes it right up. Quote
jazzbo Posted April 15, 2014 Report Posted April 15, 2014 Um. . . sorry, I beg to differ. Reversing the phase is audible, always has been for me in any system I've tried it on, and I've had two other listening partners with me evaluating music with phase inverted and restored and we three hear audible differences. Quote
Bigshot Posted April 16, 2014 Report Posted April 16, 2014 Not inverted phase... *absolute* inverted phase. Both channels inverted the same way. Quote
jazzbo Posted April 16, 2014 Report Posted April 16, 2014 (edited) Well, I have a phase button, and when I push it I assume both channels are inverted the same way and there is a distinct sonic difference every time. Here is what it says in the manual for the DAC in question (PS Audio PerfectWave DAC Mark II): Phase (Polarity) Touching this control on the front panel touch screen (or the remote) will invert the absolute phase (polarity) of the audio signal. This is the same thing as reversing the loudspeaker inputs, placing + to – and – to +. Phase reversal happens on many recordings, sometimes even within the same CD or DVD. If the track sounds a little “off” try reversing the phase with this control Edited April 16, 2014 by jazzbo Quote
crisp Posted April 16, 2014 Report Posted April 16, 2014 Meanwhile, back with the bargains, I've spotted a couple more Perfect Jazz boxes from French Columbia: Perfect Vocal Jazz: Male Singers: £26.07 at Amazon UK (15 discs) Perfect Vocal Jazz: Female Singers £34.92 at Amazon UK (16 discs) Hard to tell what's on the male one (there are a few cover shots on the edge) but Amazon Germany says the female one has: Sarah Vaughan After Hours 1961 Ella Fitzgerald Live at Carnegie Hall (2 CDs) 1973 Billie Holiday Lady In Satin 1958, Rosemary Clooney Blue Rose 1956, Lena Horne Give The Lady What She Wants 1958, Helen Merrill Parole e Musica 1960, Carmen McRae Sings Lover Man and other Billie Holiday Classics 1961, Jeanne Lee and Ran Blake The Newest Sound Around 1961, Doris Day & André Previn Duet 1962, Aretha Franklin Yeah!!! 1965, Betty Carter Social Call 1955, Etta James Time After Time 1995, Rose Murphy The Chee-Chee Girl 1948, Lisa Ekdahl When Did You Leave Heaven 1998, Eliane Elias Dreamer 2004 Quote
GA Russell Posted April 16, 2014 Author Report Posted April 16, 2014 crisp, a close-up of the male box shows... Louis Armstrong Cab Calloway Johnny Mathis Bing Crosby Harry Belafonte Jimmy Rushing Buddy Greco Oscar Brown Joe Williams Mel Torme Mose Allison Jon Hendricks Ben Sidran Gil Scott-Heron John Pizzarelli Quote
crisp Posted April 17, 2014 Report Posted April 17, 2014 (edited) Good one -- thanks GAR. As usual, a mix of some you will already have, some you won't. The side of the box fills in some of the titles: Louis Armstrong: Satch Plays Fats Cab Calloway: The Hi De Ho Man Johnny Mathis: eponymous first album Bing Crosby: Bing With a Beat Harry Belafonte: Sings the Blues Jimmy Rushing: Rushing Lullabies Buddy Greco: Songs for Swinging Losers Oscar Brown: Sin & Soul ...and Then Some Edited April 17, 2014 by crisp Quote
GA Russell Posted April 17, 2014 Author Report Posted April 17, 2014 Anita Baker - OAS - 3.68 GBP http://www.amazon.co.uk/Original-Album-Series-Anita-Baker/dp/B0052034ME?SubscriptionId=AKIAJ7T5BOVUVRD2EFYQ&tag=camelalerts-21&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B0052034ME Quote
Bigshot Posted April 18, 2014 Report Posted April 18, 2014 Well, I have a phase button, and when I push it I assume both channels are inverted the same way and there is a distinct sonic difference every time. I wonder if it's adding cross feed. Have you tried it on a mono recording? Quote
jazzbo Posted April 18, 2014 Report Posted April 18, 2014 (edited) It's not adding crossfeed. It's reversing phase. Look up absolute phase--reversing phase is not inaudible. http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/absolutephase.html Let's let the thread return to it's bargain basis. Edited April 18, 2014 by jazzbo Quote
felser Posted April 18, 2014 Report Posted April 18, 2014 Anita Baker - OAS - 3.68 GBP http://www.amazon.co.uk/Original-Album-Series-Anita-Baker/dp/B0052034ME?SubscriptionId=AKIAJ7T5BOVUVRD2EFYQ&tag=camelalerts-21&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B0052034ME Those are really good albums. Quote
jazzbo Posted April 19, 2014 Report Posted April 19, 2014 (edited) Not true bigshot, sorry. There's lots of snakeoil out there, polarity/phase sonic differences aren't among them. I mean, the woofer's direction of travel is actually reversed, that changes the sound. This is not the thread for this discussion. Edited April 19, 2014 by jazzbo Quote
GA Russell Posted April 19, 2014 Author Report Posted April 19, 2014 Herman's Hermits - four albums - 10.30 GBP http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00IKXVMLK/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=15OXMQC9Z0YS9&coliid=I1VID8S2IGTOGD ***** Dionne Warwick - four albums - 9.45 GBP http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00H3WQUKM/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=15OXMQC9Z0YS9&coliid=I1Q98NXMYORM4F ***** Dionne Warwick - second group of four albums - 8.96 GBP http://www.amazon.co.uk/Never-Fall-Dionne-Being-Myself/dp/B00H3WQUL6/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__text_y ***** Dionne Warwick - third group of four albums - 9.01 GBP http://www.amazon.co.uk/Paris-Where-There-Stage-Movies/dp/B00H3WQSOK/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__text_z ***** Dionne Warwick - fourth group of four albums - 8.96 GBP http://www.amazon.co.uk/Presenting-Dionne-Warwick-Anyone-Sensitive/dp/B00H3WQSOU/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__text_z ***** Billy J. Kramer & the Dakotas - four albums - 10.25 GBP http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00IKXVOW2/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=15OXMQC9Z0YS9&coliid=I1QK6Y20XHBFDT ***** Gerry & the Pacemakers - four albums - 9.77 GBP http://www.amazon.co.uk/Catch-Crying-Second-Album-There/dp/B00FBTYX6C/ref=pd_sim_m_h__8?ie=UTF8&refRID=050EC4VMW2H8XKWDTCB1 ***** The Hollies - OAS - 8.76 GBP http://www.amazon.co.uk/Original-Album-Series-The-Hollies/dp/B00G040NE8/ref=pd_sim_m_h__9?ie=UTF8&refRID=01JVQJ5AVE30T2VTQR3H ***** Aretha Franklin - OAS, vol. 2 - 9.41 GBP http://www.amazon.co.uk/Original-Album-Series-Vol-2/dp/B00DDVPXOQ/ref=pd_sim_m_h__36?ie=UTF8&refRID=1H273JWQ02C5H8MAWY8D ***** Otis Redding - OAS - 9.25 GBP http://www.amazon.co.uk/Original-Album-Series-5-Pack/dp/B003097A9W/ref=pd_bxgy_m_h__text_z Quote
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