The Godmother of Rock & Roll: Sister Rosetta Tharpe

[A Lark Ascending]

Going out tonight and on the iPlayer:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00xf8k7

The programme on Chess from last year goes out a bit later.

[sidewinder]

TV hard drive set for just about everything on BBC4 tonight. Haven't seen the Brubeck yet !

[A Lark Ascending]

Twas a nice programme.

Next week in the same slot....Thin Lizzy!

I love the catholicity.

[cih]

I enjoyed the programme too - some great footage (it looked flippin' windy (and cold) on that station platform in Manchester!).

Was nice to see a very brief snippet of Rev Louis Overstreet amongst the clips, a fuller version on youtube - Working On The Building

Her friend playing the piano and singing was great, I wished they had shown more!

Edited January 17, 2011 by cih

[sidewinder]

I enjoyed the programme too - some great footage (it looked flippin' windy (and cold) on that station platform in Manchester!).

Wasn't that great ! It must have been filmed just as the Beeching cuts were in progress.

The programme certainly gave me a huge respect for Sister Rosetta Tharpe. A real pro !

[A Lark Ascending]

Utterly bizarre concept - audience on one platform, performers on the other!

What would be the equivalent now - audience in Terminal One, performers in Two?

[Jazzjet]

Utterly bizarre concept - audience on one platform, performers on the other!

What would be the equivalent now - audience in Terminal One, performers in Two?

Gives a whole new meaning to 'wrong side of the tracks'.

[paul secor]

Couldn't watch it - "unavailable in your area" - USA, I guess they mean.

Here's some Rosetta Tharpe that a friend sent me recently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1__zadGXR3A

Apologies if it repeats the clip in the first post.

[BillF]

I enjoyed the programme too - some great footage (it looked flippin' windy (and cold) on that station platform in Manchester!).

Wasn't that great ! It must have been filmed just as the Beeching cuts were in progress.

The programme certainly gave me a huge respect for Sister Rosetta Tharpe. A real pro !

It was filmed at a Manchester suburban station, Chorlton, on the then Manchester to Sheffield line. Yes, Beeching put paid to the line but - good news! - the old line is currently being renovated as part of Manchester's overground Metro system and I will be able to travel from West Didsbury station now being built at the bottom of my street via Chorlton to the city centre. But to turn to more important things - I saw the blues package at the Free Trade Hall the evening before the television show was recorded at Chorlton. I also saw Sister Rosetta touring with the Humphrey Lyttelton band at the end of the fifties IIRC.

Edited January 19, 2011 by BillF

[seeline]

Very nice show! There are some things that (imo) they could have emphasized a bit more, but the clips they included were great (had never seen any of the UK footage before) and I figure that takes precedence over an info. pile-on.

(I had no idea she had toured with the Jordanaires!)

There was some great interview footage, too - I especially liked the cuts with her friend Roxie Moore.

[cih]

Couldn't watch it - "unavailable in your area" - USA, I guess they mean.

See halfway down the page on this link, a post from the Blindman that helps with viewing BBC content abroad...Blindman's Blues Forum

Edited January 19, 2011 by cih

[Chalupa]

For us Yanks that missed the original broadcast you can now stream it here....

http://video.pbs.org/video/2337391461

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Her early material with the Lucky Millinder band realy rocks! You can find it on these CDs:

Lucky Millinder 1941-42 - Classics

Lucky Millinder 1943-47 - Classics

But I can't say I really like her voice all that much. I much prefer her mother's album with the Dizzy Gillespie quintet:

Katie Bell Nubin - Soul, soul searching - Verve

with Leo Wright, Junior Mance, Les Spann, Art Davis & Lex Humphries - Jan 1960; a lot later than her daughter's early stuff, but very stirring.

MG

[AllenLowe]

I was the first to write about her in the post roots world, in American Pop, which came out around 1995; though the documentary was sincere, they missed a lot of important aspects of the whole gospel thing; most obviously, they kept citing Look Down the Long and Lonseome Road (or whatever the exact title is) as an example of her sacred work; well, that song was written by a white Jewish guy and was firmly ensconced in the post-minstrel, pop/gospel tradition, which is, really, a whole other (but central) subject,

Edited February 24, 2013 by AllenLowe

[robertoart]

I was the first to write about her in the post roots world, in American Pop, which came out around 1995; though the documentary was sincere, they missed a lot of important aspects of the whole gospel thing; most obviously, they kept citing Look Down the Long and Lonseome Road (or whatever the exact title is) as an example of her sacred work; well, that song was written by a white Jewish guy and was firmly ensconced in the post-minstrel, pop/gospel tradition, which is, really, a whole other (but central) subject,

Have you got his version handy?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I was the first to write about her in the post roots world, in American Pop, which came out around 1995; though the documentary was sincere, they missed a lot of important aspects of the whole gospel thing; most obviously, they kept citing Look Down the Long and Lonseome Road (or whatever the exact title is) as an example of her sacred work; well, that song was written by a white Jewish guy and was firmly ensconced in the post-minstrel, pop/gospel tradition, which is, really, a whole other (but central) subject,

Sister Rosetta was really much more of an entertainer than a gospel singer, in my view. Gospel flavoured, I'd say, perhaps an early version of Curtis Mayfield. I'm sure you've heard oceans more gospel music than I have and I'm equally sure you recognise that much of that is entertainment, but there's a difference between Rosetta's work with Millinder and Sam Cooke's (to pick an obviously entertaining gospel singer) with the Soul Stirrers.

Allen, the Jewish authorship of 'Lonesome road' is irrelevant because the song isn't tied to any specific religion so it makes sense either way. And there's no reason why a song shouldn't be allowed to form part of a canon, just on account of the ethnicity of its authors, or their usual employment, or even the undeniable fact that it's often performed by secular artists. So is 'Amazing grace'.

MG

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I was the first to write about her in the post roots world, in American Pop, which came out around 1995; though the documentary was sincere, they missed a lot of important aspects of the whole gospel thing; most obviously, they kept citing Look Down the Long and Lonseome Road (or whatever the exact title is) as an example of her sacred work; well, that song was written by a white Jewish guy and was firmly ensconced in the post-minstrel, pop/gospel tradition, which is, really, a whole other (but central) subject,

Sister Rosetta was really much more of an entertainer than a gospel singer, in my view. Gospel flavoured, I'd say, perhaps an early version of Curtis Mayfield. I'm sure you've heard oceans more gospel music than I have and I'm equally sure you recognise that much of that is entertainment, but there's a difference between Rosetta's work with Millinder and Sam Cooke's (to pick an obviously entertaining gospel singer) with the Soul Stirrers.

Allen, the Jewish authorship of 'Lonesome road' is irrelevant because the song isn't tied to any specific religion so it makes sense either way. And there's no reason why a song shouldn't be allowed to form part of a canon, just on account of the ethnicity of its authors, or their usual employment, or even the undeniable fact that it's often performed by secular artists. So is 'Amazing grace'.

MG

Further thoughts on 'Lonesome road'. How would you stack it up against Paul Simon's 'Loves me like a rock' sung by the Dixie Hummingbirds, who I understand, did the backing vocals for Simon's version? Simon's position doesn't seem to me many miles away from Nat Schildkret's.

Ditto Mick Jones, the writer of Foreigner's 'I want to know what love is', on which the New Jersey Mass Choir did backing vocals, but also recorded it on their own Savoy album. Further, why shouldn't Bob Marley record 'People get ready', even though I understand he wasn't a Christian?

I'm really not sure what you were trying to get at in your post.

MG

[AllenLowe]

the point is: that there's a whole genre of pop spiritual, that goes back to gospel music written for the minstrel stage, of which Lonesome Road is a prime late example; the documentary purports that Rosetta was in the middle of a conflict between the performance of secular music and religius music, and uses Lonesome Rod as an example of the triumph of the religious over the secular; when in reaitiy it is not, but rather part of the whole "corruption" of religious song, This whole movement, of pop influence on religious song, helped create singers like Tharpe (and Ray Charles and Nappy Brown, even John Lee Hoooker).

The white Jewishness of the songwriter (Nat Shilkret, who was a bandleader and worked for Victor) is cited because it's ironic that a documentary that purports to be a scholarly examination of her life is so clueless as to not only the big picture of this type of song, but to the reality that here was a black singer with a Sanctified background singing something that was so ensconced in the commercial songwriting world. Instead Lonesome Road is used as background, soundtrack music that is supposed to show her being pulled in the direction of the church.

Edited February 24, 2013 by AllenLowe

[Noj]

Couldn't watch it - "unavailable in your area" - USA, I guess they mean.

Here's some Rosetta Tharpe that a friend sent me recently: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1__zadGXR3A

Apologies if it repeats the clip in the first post.

Wow! Thanks for posting that. She rocks.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

the point is: that there's a whole genre of pop spiritual, that goes back to gospel music written for the minstrel stage, of which Lonesome Road is a prime late example; the documentary purports that Rosetta was in the middle of a conflict between the performance of secular music and religius music, and uses Lonesome Rod as an example of the triumph of the religious over the secular; when in reaitiy it is not, but rather part of the whole "corruption" of religious song, This whole movement, of pop influence on religious song, helped create singers like Tharpe (and Ray Charles and Nappy Brown, even John Lee Hoooker).

The white Jewishness of the songwriter (Nat Shilkret, who was a bandleader and worked for Victor) is cited because it's ironic that a documentary that purports to be a scholarly examination of her life is so clueless as to not only the big picture of this type of song, but to the reality that here was a black singer with a Sanctified background singing something that was so ensconced in the commercial songwriting world. Instead Lonesome Road is used as background, soundtrack music that is supposed to show her being pulled in the direction of the church.

Thanks, that's clear now. Except that the early fifties recordings of people like Billy Wright, Clyde McPhatter and Nappy Brown (and others, of course, then later, Ray Charles in the mid-fifties, and through him, Horace SIlver) seem to me to show gospel music influencing black pop music, not the other way round. And you'll know that Nappy Brown became Professor Napoleon Brown and Rev Cleophus Robinson's accompanist on Peacock albums. I think that black pop music influenced gospel music later, and this may be why so many people who like forties/fifties gospel don't like the gospel of the sixties and subsequent periods.

MG

[Big Beat Steve]

But I can't say I really like her voice all that much. I much prefer her mother's album with the Dizzy Gillespie quintet:

Katie Bell Nubin - Soul, soul searching - Verve

with Leo Wright, Junior Mance, Les Spann, Art Davis & Lex Humphries - Jan 1960; a lot later than her daughter's early stuff, but very stirring.

By coincidence a couple of days ago I received a recent auction win - all 1964 issues of the Swedish jazz mag Orkester Journalen, and the March issue happens to have a (three-star) review of this record:

Katie Bell Nubin's voice is well-suited to the gospel style. The orchestra is said to be under the direction of Dizzy Gillespie but he can be heard only in a scant few tracks and has a more prominent role only in Where's Adam and Come Over Here which thanks to his efforts turn out to be the best on this record. Gillespie is all himself here but the other orchestra members appear to be restrained so their playing lacks the personal touch. Katie Bell is no great singer, at any rate not in the class of her daughter Sister Rosetta Tharpe, but she presents her music competently. A nice and engaging record.

Opinions do differ, as you can see.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Big Beat Steve

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

But I can't say I really like her voice all that much. I much prefer her mother's album with the Dizzy Gillespie quintet:

Katie Bell Nubin - Soul, soul searching - Verve

with Leo Wright, Junior Mance, Les Spann, Art Davis & Lex Humphries - Jan 1960; a lot later than her daughter's early stuff, but very stirring.

By coincidence a couple of days ago I received a recent auction win - all 1964 issues of the Swedish jazz mag Orkester Journalen, and the March issue happens to have a (three-star) review of this record:

Katie Bell Nubin's voice is well-suited to the gospel style. The orchestra is said to be under the direction of Dizzy Gillespie but he can be heard only in a scant few tracks and has a more prominent role only in Where's Adam and Come Over Here which thanks to his efforts turn out to be the best on this record. Gillespie is all himself here but the other orchestra members appear to be restrained so their playing lacks the personal touch. Katie Bell is no great singer, at any rate not in the class of her daughter Sister Rosetta Tharpe, but she presents her music competently. A nice and engaging record.

Opinions do differ, as you can see.

I don't disagree with the view that Rosetta is the better singer. I just greatly prefer Katie. She sounds more honest.

MG

[JSngry]

They thought "Lonesome Road" was a gospel song? Seriously?

Fail, documentary makers.

The first time I knowingly heard it was by Chris Connor with Maynard Ferguson. I thought it was an embarrassing gooeycrap-pseudohalfamuch of a song then and I still do. One of those "you don't have to believe it, you just need to possibly believe that whoever is singing it might believe that somebody might believe something more or less like it at some time" feel-goody things meant to not offend anybody for fun and profit.

As for Sister Rosetta, I've never been that "touched" by either her gospel or her secular work, although it's always felt to me that she meant the secular stuff and believed the gospel stuff.

Advantage secular, then.

[robertoart]

So this song was written by Shilkret and Austin, Appropriating Black gospel music. It's 'secular' status then becomes something determined only by knowledge of the composers (or highly attuned crap meters like those of jsngry). Apparently the song was used as a substitute for Old Man River in an early film version.

The difference between gospel and secular interpretation in the context of Tharpe's presentation is closer to a Black performer re-appropriating the song back into a Black Gospel expression. The lack of investigation or acknowledgement by the doco makers of the 'White Appropriators of Gospel' seems hardly relevant here given the context of Tharpe's performative use of the song.

[medjuck]

In LA the program is being broadcast again Sunday morning.