Hot Stove Thread 2011-2012

[JSngry]

What's this about the SEC looking into the Miami stadium deal?

[Dan Gould]

The stadium they played in was built for football. the imminent threat of late afternoon rain hurt attendance, no doubt, and the fact that they had an unfavorable lease didn't help the finances. But it was centrally located for the entire market from Miami-Dade to Palm Beach county. The history of the franchise fan base is that the latinos don't show up unless they are in the playoffs.

They'll make money from sky boxes but I am very confident that within a year or two they won't see as large a jump in attendance as they think they will.

[Tim McG]

That might be the best, but this is the greatest:

I had that card

[Dan Gould]

Best baseball news in years:

[Dave James]

Agree this is good news. Too bad he passed away a year ago. I'll tell you what would be equally good news would be someone doing whatever has to be done to get Gil Hodges into the Hall. C'mon man.

[Brad]

Agree this is good news. Too bad he passed away a year ago. I'll tell you what would be equally good news would be someone doing whatever has to be done to get Gil Hodges into the Hall. C'mon man.

At first I was doubtful that he belonged but looking at his stats, etc., it's a shame that it happened after his death.

Gil, I just can't understand. Hopefully, someday he will get his due but I doubt it. Aside from his playing, a wonderful manager. The Mets don't win in 1969 without his presence. I'll never forget one game where I think McGraw was pitching. He walks out of the dugout and Tug figures he's being taken out, but, no, Gil just keeps on walking. Harrelson figures he's going to get pulled but, no. Gil keeps on walking. He goes to Left field and pulls Cleon Jones. He didn't like the way Cleon was playing and pulled him out, to make a point.

Can you see that happening today? Do you think Reyes would have been allowed to pull himself out of the game in his last Mets game with Gil at the helm? Not jolly likely.

[Dan Gould]

I don't see it as an either/or thing but the thing about Santo is that third baseman are under-represented in the Hall. There's just no doubt that relative to the history of the players at that position, he was one of the greats. Its appalling that when the Veteran's committee was filled with current members of the Hall, and Santo was still alive, that they couldn't see why he deserved to be inducted. Yet this new group gave him the nod from 15 of 16 members ...

As for Hodges, for the totality of his career in the game, absolutely, I'd put him in. But then again I'm a "big Hall" kind of guy, you have to be if you supported Jim Rice's induction. But one difference between Hodges and Santo is that relative to 1B in the Hall, Hodges career numbers are kinda marginal. Santo belongs just on his playing, Hodges belongs on everything he did.

[Quincy]

I've long thought Santo belonged, in good part for the 3rd basemen are underrepresented reason that Dan mentions, and I think it's sad that it takes death (or maybe just a new group of voters, or both) to get in.

I do recall reading in a few places (perhaps Leo Durocher's book being one) that some believed that Santo's HR & RBI totals always came when the team was far ahead or well behind. Whether he deserved that rap I don't know (I doubt it), but it was there.

[Dan Gould]

that I never heard but I always figured there was a "he was helped by Wrigley" perception that hurt him. And like Rice, I think he did have pretty pedestrian road numbers. But still ... he hit a lot of homers in a decade when pitching dominated and played damn well in the field.

I'm going to look forward to the induction ceremony - it just sucks that my father's cognition has deteriorated to the point that he doesn't really remember why this was important to him just a year or two ago.

[JSngry]

that I never heard but I always figured there was a "he was helped by Wrigley" perception that hurt him.

I guess those who wanted to could make that argument about his offense, but what about his defense? Santo made some pretty nifty plays, so was Wrigley a "thrid base friendly" park?

[Neal Pomea]

Hodges' reputation took a downturn in later years, at least when managing the Washington Senators, IIRC. Heartlessly ruined the arms of more than one pitcher by insisting they "tough it out" by putting in more innings than they should have. Sorry to say that, since he played a big part in that 50s Dodger team that deserves so much credit for triumphing over the racial barriers. They may always be America's team, AFAIC. Will always appreciate him for that part of his career.

You would think Santo should have been in the HOF a long time ago, if Billy Williams was. Was there something about his character that the veterans' committee didn't like?

[Chuck Nessa]

I heard he was blocked by Mike Schmidt for a few years. Opponents did not like Santo

[JETman]

Any type 1 diabetic (even Bobby Clarke) is A-OK in my book. It's a small club.

[alocispepraluger102]

ronnie drank a little in those days, which is never good for a diabetic, which may have helped his legs fell off.

the committee listed a bunch of extraneous irrelevant junk, like his passion for the game and broadcasting.

ronnie should have been in the hall of fame when he was alive on his playing merits.

inducting ron santo in this sorry way leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

that I never heard but I always figured there was a "he was helped by Wrigley" perception that hurt him.

I guess those who wanted to could make that argument about his offense, but what about his defense? Santo made some pretty nifty plays, so was Wrigley a "thrid base friendly" park?

ron was an awesome defensive 3rd bagger, one of the best ever.

[JSngry]

No question. I remember an article about him in the late, lamented SPORT magazine from 1965 or so with a photo of him making an ice cream cone catch of a line drive, flying through the air like Superman. The caption read (and I paraphrase to the best of my ability), "Santo says, 'I believe in diving at anything that comes anywhere near you. Sometimes you can catch it.'"

As a pre-adolescent, I thought that was the correct way to think about everything, not just baseball. To some extent, I still do. Don't think I'd still remember it otherwise.

Santo, Kessinger, Beckert, & Banks. Helluva infield.

[alocispepraluger102]

No question. I remember an article about him in the late, lamented SPORT magazine from 1965 or so with a photo of him making an ice cream cone catch of a line drive, flying through the air like Superman. The caption read (and I paraphrase to the best of my ability), "Santo says, 'I believe in diving at anything that comes anywhere near you. Sometimes you can catch it.'"

As a pre-adolescent, I thought that was the correct way to think about everything, not just baseball. To some extent, I still do. Don't think I'd still remember it otherwise.

Santo, Kessinger, Beckert, & Banks. Helluva infield.

sport magazine!!!!!!!!!! ahhhhhhhhhhhh

what a team the cubbies were then.

lou boudreau was one of the announcers with vince lloyd.

i loved to hear pat hughes and ronnie do the games on radio. pat is one of the best, and classiest ever. he called every inning of every game with ronnie, with just one inning off. that's a lot of play by play.

Edited December 7, 2011 by alocispepraluger102

[JSngry]

My dad was from Illinois & we'd go visit his family every summer for a week or two. My uncle was a big Cubs fan but had to work during the day, so it became my responsibility to watch all the Cubs games on WGN(?...don't know if that made it all the way to Sterling or not, but they were on some area TV station) during the day and give him a report when he got home.

Best summer job ever!

(...and then the side trips to Kalamazzo to visit my aunt...that meant Tigers ball for a couple of days...pretty sure I saw the Tigers pull off a triple play on TV...for a kid in a day where the only accessible options were Astros & Cardinals, these windows into other worlds were a real treat!)

[Brad]

I think the Senators were on the job training for Gil. When he got to the Mets he realized that he had some great up and coming talent. Met players always speak reverentially of him. They wouldn't have made it without him. Real shame he died so young.

[JSngry]

Angels sign both Pujols & C.J. Wilson. Not a good day for the Rangers.

The Pujols deal is A-Rod-level nuts, but if the Rangers couldn't or wouldn't match the very reasonable deal that C.J. got, then the reservations-about-the-organization eyebrow that I'd been wanting so badly to finally relax just got raised more than a little.

Nolan don't go five years for pitchers. Well fuck, dude, get over it. Other people will. That you would let your (right now) only division rival take your best pitcher without too much of a fight really, really does not sit well with me. Is the organization angling to actually win or just to "compete"?

Should've won it in October. Might be a while before we get back now, especially hearing about the Angels new TV deal, which is 2-3 time more than ours (which doesn't go into effect until 2014, iirc). Just when you think you're going to be able to have a chance at staying in the hunt with the true "big market" teams in terms of dollars available...it was a fun dream while it lasted.

In the meantime, that well-worn, mustard-stained C.J. Wilson jersey just went into the rag heap.

[Dave James]

Although its of little immediate solace to fans of teams in the AL West, that Pujols deal is going to wind up being A-Rodian in its downstream implications for the Angels. For one thing, the guy may already be two or three years older than he says he is and for another, look no further than Mr. Rod for an indication of how one's skills begin to deteriorate around age 36. This is absolutely, unequivocally guaranteed to be a short term gain, long term pain situation. Yet another indication that in a league with no salary restrictions, these guys can't get out of their own way.

[JSngry]

Yeah, the Pujols deal does not upset me too much, it's just big-money dick flapping, but the C.J. deal...if this really comes down to an issue of the ownership pocketbooks staying closed because they don't like his "edgy" personality (and I've hear no rumors that it does, but have heard talk that he "rubs people the wrong way"), then...fuck that.

The only truly unconditional love I have is for my family. A sports team is not my family, and a sports team that lets personalities take precedence over performance when it comes time to pay up is not even my friend. Is it a business or is it not? If it is, take care of your business and put the emo stuff aside. That "edgy" personality has a talent that your team would most likely have been much better with than without, and he got fair market value afaic. Your main competitior for getting into the playoffs just better at your expense. How is that good business?

I'm venting right now, we'll see how the rest of the off-season & the 2012 season goes, but right now....grrrrrrrr.

Edited December 8, 2011 by JSngry

[Chalupa]

Agree with Dave. The Pujols deal makes the Phillies extension of Ryan Howard look almost reasonable. No, on second thought the Howard extension is still stupid. However I'd like to thank the Angels' management for making the Phillies' fans feel better in that Howard's deal is only for 5 years.

Edited December 8, 2011 by J.H. Deeley

[Quincy]

Agree with Dave. The Pujols deal makes the Phillies extension of Ryan Howard look almost reasonable. No, on second thought the Howard extension is still stupid. However I'd like to thank the Angels' management for making the Phillies' fans feel better in that Howard's deal is only for 5 years.

Yeah, in cases like these I think it's far better to pay far too much in a short amount of time than go out to age 42. Sheeeesh, I didn't see this one coming, though I should have as if you're going to go long the AL makes more sense for him. It looks like Lance will have an easier place to play for St. Louis. And now Stan Musial can die knowing many of his franchise records are safe, not that he really cared. Man, sports owners just never learn do they? Or the accounting is such that they've learned very well, as financial losses aren't really losses. Whew!

[Brad]

Gee, I thought a recession was on. Guess I was wrong

Now, I know that Pujols doesn't owe anything to the Cards and vice versa. Two championships came during his years there, but it sure would have been nice to see him end his career there.

As far as C.J. Wilson, I'm glad Nolan showed a little common sense in refusing to ante up. Giving pitchers five years is nuts. Just because everyone else is doing it, does that mean you should, with the negative financial consequences that entails. Now, maybe it's not a big deal that it's not your money but you can't commit financial suicide. My team, the Mets, made many a bad deal over the years and now they're paying for it. They have to bring expenditures into line with the budget, which ain't good right now.

[JSngry]

After having cooled off a little, I'm still a little pissed off that they didn't even tender C.J. an offer. They just told him to let them know what his other offers were, and then they'd tell him whether or not they would/could match it. I don't know if I like that attitude or not, frankly. I mean, no, C.J. Wilson is not an ace, and probably never will be, but his work ethic is impeccable, and his skills are not insignificant. But I guess they figure that now's the time to bring Feliz into the rotation & Greg Maddux into the organization.

But that leaves Colby Lewis as your #1 starter. If his hip gets better, you can work with that, but how much? The Nefti experiment is jsut that, an experiment. And how does Ogando come back physically for year 2 as a starter? That could go all kinds of ways, only some of them good. Scott Feldman is always a fallback, but, really... 5/77.5 seems reasonable for a proven quantity with an impeccable work ethic and substantial skills. But I guess not.

The real question for me now, though, is this - how deep are the new ownership's pockets really going to be, with or without that TV money coming in 2014? Pujols will most likely yield diminishing returns at some point, but until he does, the Rangers suddenly have a significant competitor in their division that wasn't there 24 hours ago. Weaver, Haren, & Wilson vs. Lewis, Holland, & Harrison...hmmm. And I don't know if Pujols can totally compensate for the overall lightness of the rest of the overall Angles offense, but he goes a long way towards making up for it.

Supposedly, the Rangers plan for this off-season is to go ahead and work on getting some "core players" locked up for some more years. We'll see how that goes, but now we know that C.J. Wilson was never considered a core player by either JD or Nolan. Although they often see things quite differently, when those two are against you, you're as good as gone.