Why Jazz Isn't Cool Anymore

[Chuck Nessa]

Isn't it time to let this foolishness die?

[Tom Storer]

Culture is an unnecessary frame of reference, because my frame of reference is constructed of noises, not cultures.

[...] am I supposed to have the culture in mind while I'm listening to the sounds some of its members created?

[...] Music is something our brains just feel and naturally "get."

I would say that culture (in the sense of the cultural experiences and references that shape us as individuals) is an unavoidable frame of reference. Much of our cultural conditioning is invisible to us, a kind of unconscious. That's not to say it isn't there. Trying to consider art without acknowledging the impact of the culture of both the artist and the audience is like considering fish without water. I mean, does it really matter if it's a fresh-water fish or a saltwater fish? If you only see it on your plate, no. But it matters to the fish, and the fisherman.

[Head Man]

Isn't it time to let this foolishness die?

Obviously NOT............

[David Ayers]

It's dead. Isn't it time to stop flogging it?

[Tom Storer]

Isn't it time to let this foolishness die?

It's dead. Isn't it time to stop flogging it?

With all due respect, if you think people are saying foolish things or just repeating themselves, you don't have to keep reading the thread. I'm just saying.

Eventually it will die, like all threads. What's the hurry?

[Dan Gould]

I kind of think of it as rubbernecking at the largest car crash you've ever seen, and then realizing that you keep seeing the same car over and over again, tangled up in this wreckage and that wreckage and ...

Edited December 13, 2011 by Dan Gould

[Noj]

Culture is an unnecessary frame of reference, because my frame of reference is constructed of noises, not cultures.

[...] am I supposed to have the culture in mind while I'm listening to the sounds some of its members created?

[...] Music is something our brains just feel and naturally "get."

I would say that culture (in the sense of the cultural experiences and references that shape us as individuals) is an unavoidable frame of reference. Much of our cultural conditioning is invisible to us, a kind of unconscious. That's not to say it isn't there. Trying to consider art without acknowledging the impact of the culture of both the artist and the audience is like considering fish without water. I mean, does it really matter if it's a fresh-water fish or a saltwater fish? If you only see it on your plate, no. But it matters to the fish, and the fisherman.

I'm not sure if that fish analogy translates to music, Tom. There would have to be more types of water or something, but I get your point.

From what I've heard of jazz, it's the great melting pot of the music of every culture. Jazz is eclectic and multi-cultural. It's had its fingers in every last sound from the four corners of the globe.

There's no denying jazz began from a single American culture, yet American culture has never been as black and white as the great generalizing force of history makes it out to be.

To continue with a food analogy, saying jazz is of one culture at this point in history is like trying to get the original broth out of a soup we've been chopping a wide variety of vegetables into while it simmered. The broth isn't the same any more. There's no going back.

Payton's "Bitches" record has a decidedly trip hop influence, a genre whose top artists reads like a virtual United Nations member list.

Then again my opinion probably just has to do with my own distaste for "cultural identity" which I think is code for "biased toward a group of people for superficial reasons." I think the world will be a better place when every person's identity is his or her own.

[Patrick]

Nicholas Payton was the guest on the November 4 podcast of Jason Crane's The Jazz Session. Social media and Bitches, among other things, are discussed. The podcast includes some (slightly) longer musical excerpts. I don't think I'll be tracking it down, but probably more interesting/useful than another Louis tribute album.

And when you're done with that podcast (...perhaps before you even start it), click on the Wadada Leo Smith podcast from September.

[David Ayers]

I'm like the landlord waiting for everybody to leave the pub.

[JSngry]

Except it's not your pub.

[Head Man]

Except it's not your pub.

It's NEVER the Landlord's pub!

[danasgoodstuff]

And here is a brief review of the performance. I was amazed by Modeliste and Porter, knowing them from a strictly backbeat world. Hot damn. Torkanowsky was a discovery for me. It was revelatory to hear someone whose name I had never seen here or elsewhere, taking the music fluently and seamlessly in any and every direction with such technique. The horns were superfluous in my opinion. This was one hell of a trio!

http://www.nola.com/jazzfest/index.ssf/2011/05/pianist_david_torkanowsky_take.html?mobRedir=false

When i was writing 'bout musics and therefore still on the free goods gravytrain 20 years ago, Torkanowsky was all over everything from New Orleans, jazz, blues, whatever.

[AllenLowe]

anyone who's interested might want to check out a very long Facebook thread I started - I had an epiphany the other night - if we White guys are the outsiders than, in this modern age, we are the true jazzers, since it's essentially an outsider music. So Wynton, Payton and crew are really no longer jazz musicians, since they are too far INSIDE,

seriously.

[.:.impossible]

I don't understand.

[David Ayers]

I don't understand.

Me neither. I can only understand threads about box sets and reissues.

[AllenLowe]

well, I could explain it to you guys - but then I'd have to kill you.

[cih]

you guys aren't black?

hang on - all the women here say aye...

[Face of the Bass]

anyone who's interested might want to check out a very long Facebook thread I started - I had an epiphany the other night - if we White guys are the outsiders than, in this modern age, we are the true jazzers, since it's essentially an outsider music. So Wynton, Payton and crew are really no longer jazz musicians, since they are too far INSIDE,

seriously.

Sorry, white people are never cool. It's one of Newton's laws.

[Ted O'Reilly]

anyone who's interested might want to check out a very long Facebook thread I started - I had an epiphany the other night - if we White guys are the outsiders than, in this modern age, we are the true jazzers, since it's essentially an outsider music. So Wynton, Payton and crew are really no longer jazz musicians, since they are too far INSIDE,

seriously.

Sorry, white people are never cool. It's one of Newton's laws.

James Newton?

[David Ayers]

well, I could explain it to you guys - but then I'd have to kill you.

Can't you just wait for us to die? We are unlikely to understand the explanation and it would avoid inconvenient court appearances for you.

[AllenLowe]

yeah and I hate the joint.

but all seriousness aside, it's about alienation and the kind of of tension that makes a work of art an argument, a point of contention, And these days guys like me have a lot more to argue about than Wynton or Payton.

Edited December 13, 2011 by AllenLowe

[David Ayers]

it's about alienation and the kind of of tension that makes a work of art an argument,

And the question too about how often really you get that in jazz. I wouldn't say jazz and I wouldn't say argument. Feelingful, purposive. I think Jones/Baraka saw the problem around jazz when he chose to emphasise blues. Incidentally I think critique of jazz-as-African-American-culture has been an important and not well-understood thread in African-American cultural discourse.

[Leeway]

I'm thinking this thread is evidence item #1 why jazz isn't cool anymore.

[AllenLowe]

glib but untrue.

[Chuck Nessa]

glib but untrue.

Now you are required to define "cool". Not that I want to read it.