let's put our seniors in prison and our inmates in nursing homes

[sonnymax]

...If standing up for my principles and having integrity makes me judgmental, then so be it...

Imo, judgmental people actually lack integrity. One who strives to act with honesty and sincerity, and who values the wholeness of everyone and everything around him, would also be one that avoids judging, devaluing, and demeaning others, regardless of their misdeeds.

[GA Russell]

sonnymax, I don't see the linkage. Why can't someone have lots of integrity, and not see much wholeness in everyone and everything around him?

[JETman]

The common misconception is that taking drugs and drinking alcohol excessively are always victimless crimes.

1. Drinking alcohol, even excessively is not a crime. Out of control behavior from those who partake can certainly break the law, but prohibition of alcohol was repealed long ago.

2. Please explain who the victim is in a drug crime, and explain to me how the said crime is exclusive to the drug. (To explain what I mean, I've heard the argument that drugs are bad because drug addicts burglarize homes to pay for their fix. The crime here is burglary or breaking and entering, not the drug.) I see no reason to make a drug illegal when the action being blamed on the drug is the fault of the user, not the drug, and is already illegal besides. When we look at the history of drug laws in this country, it becomes apparent that drug laws were created, not to stop drug use, but to control all those scary nonwhite people out there.

Are you really this naive?

[JETman]

If standing up for my principles and having integrity makes me judgmental, then so be it. I can live with myself and my kids can look up to and respect me, and that's what matters most to me at the end of the day.

Congratulations. It must be great to be you. Your name isn't Bill Bennett by any chance?

Do you only save your wisecracks for me? You have, as usual, missed my point. It is NOT my responsibility to make sure that you get it. Read between the lines and think outside the box for once.

And yes, for the reason you cite, in a world where far too many people make excuses, it is fucking great to be me. I didn't say that I'm a "goody two shoes". I do, however, know better than to waste my time worrying about the ills of our prison system. I worry about me staying out of our prison system by avoiding drugs, by not drinking and driving and by taking FULL responsibility for MY behavior. If I do that successfully, the battle is won and the rest will take care of itself. THAT is what I can control. If more people do this, we wouldn't have to worry about how unfair the drug laws are, would we?

Please don't let this turn into an argument about why the drug laws are what they are, and about how big brother is out to get us all. That would just be missing the point yet again.

sonnymax, I don't see the linkage. Why can't someone have lots of integrity, and not see much wholeness in everyone and everything around him?

Thank you for pointing out the obvious!

[JETman]

The common misconception is that taking drugs and drinking alcohol excessively are always victimless crimes. We all define "crimes" in different ways, I know. But hurting oneself can often lead to crimes which aren't so apparent. We all make choices in life, some better than others. I have for better or worse, like the rest of us, chosen a certain road to follow. If standing up for my principles and having integrity makes me judgmental, then so be it. I can live with myself and my kids can look up to and respect me, and that's what matters most to me at the end of the day. It's really time that we in this country got back to teaching our kids something valuable again. I, for one, have gotten sick and tired of coming across kids in everyday life who seem to value nothing at all.

Making blanket statements like "we should legalize drugs" or "let's change the draconian drug laws" are cop outs in my book. They are lazy ways out of doing the real work. I know that the penal system in the US has failed miserably. The only way to make this failure matter less is to lead by example.

I respect that you stand up for your principles and have integrity.

I think the real work is creating a society that is inclusive and whose greatest failure would be to let someone fall through the cracks. I've lost friends from drugs. I know how difficult it is to get over an addiction. I know that many people are unable to do so. The last thing I want is for anyone to chose drugs. At the same time, making a person who is an addict into a criminal, I believe, is the wrong course of action. Just think of the jazz musicians who wasted some of their best years in prison. I wish we had more recordings of Dupree Bolton and others.

I'm not copping out at all. I completely believe that our drug laws are unfair. As it was pointed out earlier, you don't see a lot of upper class people going to prison for drug crimes. At the same time, by making any drug user a criminal, you limit their possibilities for success. I know a lot of high functioning alcoholics, such as a attorneys, who are very successful. They don't have to worry about prison unless they drive drunk or do something really stupid. I think, as a society, instead of throwing these people away in prison, we need to do everything we can to bring them back from addiction and empower them to truly live.

I like your point about leading by example. I used to drink, smoke and use drugs, but I quit years ago. I try to teach my son the consequence of drug and alcohol abuse. I have taught him that he should never give his power to anything, be it drugs, alcohol, religion, etc...

I think one of the biggest problems in the USA is hopelessness. We should start a war on that instead of one on drugs. If people know they matter and have opportunities, the drugs and alcohol won't look so tantalizing.

My stepfather is in his 70's and spends his day watching Fox news. He went to college in the 50's, was in a fraternity, and has had a somewhat privileged life. Yes, he worked for it, but he had a lot more opportunities than most. He's really dismissive of the struggles of others. His attitude is, "Not all salmon make it upstream." I couldn't live with myself if I had that attitude. He thinks because he worked hard in college and others didn't than they deserve what they get. I've told him, that these people that he looks down on, work ten times harder than he ever did. I've seen it. He has no problem generalizing people and fitting them into categories. He is for harsh drug laws and tea party ideals. He is completely polarized and has forgotten that the everything isn't black and white. There are grey areas and much of life exists here.

My problem is that I can't generalize drug users. I've known them and have been one myself. They are people just like you and me. Yes, some are extremely lost and may never recover, but there are others that can be brought back with love and support. Some of the best people I've ever known were addicts while some of the worst I've known were pillars of their communities and churches. It is not right to generalize about drug users being criminals. Some become criminals to get their drugs, yet if they were legal, maybe the drugs would be much cheaper and the addict could work, and contribute to society, in order to purchase their drugs.

Every person born on this planet is valuable and we, as a society, need to remember this and fight for each person. These are the principles I live by.

Who would foot the bill for your "war on hopelessness"? How would we ensure that all parents are doing their jobs correctly? As a wise lyricist once wrote: "how do you dare to tell me that I'm my father's son, when that is just an accident of birth?".

Both you and I know that hopelessness is but one reason why people turn to drugs. It would be foolish to treat it as the ONLY reason. The government, in its infinite wisdom has decided that the best way to try to eliminate the problem (because as much as it might try, it cannot oversee the lives of each and every one of its citizens and thereby monitor EVERY possible reason) is to uniformly punish the customer base which encourages the source to continue to supply. I could give a rat's ass about whether this is fair or not. I worry about myself as should everyone else. The overall unfairness of the laws as they currently stand (and good luck trying to change them) becomes meaningless to me if I do this. PERIOD.

Let's put our dogs in eggplants and our TVs in spacesuits!

are you in the men's room again?

Shoes for industry!

Do you need help with that key?

[JSngry]

[sonnymax]

sonnymax, I don't see the linkage. Why can't someone have lots of integrity, and not see much wholeness in everyone and everything around him?

Ah, but there is a wholeness to everything. This is not the same thing as perfection. In fact, imperfection is inherent in completeness. Those who fail to appreciate this and instead pass judgment based on these inherent imperfections cling to a false sense of moral superiority. Such people, imo, lack integrity.

Oh yeah, and they make lousy dance partners too!

[GA Russell]

I'll need to think about that!

[Pete C]

The demons of those who judge the demons of others are the more fearsome demons.

[Jazzmoose]

Um, nothing to do with this thread, of course but does anyone remember how to find the ignore function?

[J.A.W.]

Um, nothing to do with this thread, of course but does anyone remember how to find the ignore function?

Click on your handle at the top right-hand corner, click on your profile, click on "edit my profile" at the top right-hand corner, click on "manage ignored users" in the left-hand column, and finally add a name to the bar at the bottom of that page, tick one of the boxes or both below that bar and click on "save changes", and Bob's your uncle, to use an English expression

Edited April 18, 2012 by J.A.W.

[Jazzmoose]

Thanks, Hans! I use it so rarely that I can never remember the steps.

[Pete C]

Did Cartagena mark the beginning of the end of the war on drugs?

Slowly but surely, world leaders are beginning to admit that their war on drugs is not working. Reform is now unavoidable

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/apr/18/cartagena-war-on-drugs

[sonnymax]

Thanks, Hans! I use it so rarely that I can never remember the steps.

Gee, I hope it's not on my account.

[GA Russell]

sonnymax, if we ignored you, we wouldn't see our free Amazon mp3 credits!

[Jazzmoose]

Thanks, Hans! I use it so rarely that I can never remember the steps.

Gee, I hope it's not on my account.

Nah, I've had you on ignore since you joined...

Oops.