Tim McG Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Think of those wins as ill-gotten gains garnered while a conspiracy was underway by the officials, and therefore subject to symbolic "reimbursement" as partial punishment for those criminal acts. Since those acts were in contravention of the NCAA code, the wins are fair game, since no action could have been taken at the time of those wins due to lack of information. I understand, but it punishes the wrong people. And, quite frankly, seems more than a little bit petty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Considering the magnitude of the crime (the officials', not Sandusky), it's backseat quarterbacking (to coin a mixed metaphor) to try to second-guess what's "petty." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papsrus Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Erasing wins is a pretty standard component of sanctions. Ohio State and USC both forfeited wins and USC was stripped of national championship. Difference here is the nature of the violations -- and while not directly football related, clearly they are much more serious that your garden variety recruiting violations or pay for play schemes. In essence, the man is now viewed as being a party to a criminal enterprise/cover-up during the years he was coaching all those wins. While the criminal activity didn't have an impact on the field of play, neither arguably does exchanging player gear for tattoos (Ohio State). And the NCAA surely doesn't want the man holding what would be an untouchable winning record to be tainted by criminal behavior of any kind, let alone the criminal acts he was found to be involved in. These are schools, first and foremost, and I find it difficult to quibble with any punitive measures meant to "teach a lesson." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 I like Albert Brooks' suggestion to keep the Paterno statue but turn its head so that Joe is forever looking the other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.D. Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 I was going to wonder out loud, but found via Google that In wake of Penn State investigation, FSU's Bobby Bowden becomes all-time wins leader Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim McG Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Erasing wins is a pretty standard component of sanctions. Ohio State and USC both forfeited wins and USC was stripped of national championship. Difference here is the nature of the violations -- and while not directly football related, clearly they are much more serious that your garden variety recruiting violations or pay for play schemes. In essence, the man is now viewed as being a party to a criminal enterprise/cover-up during the years he was coaching all those wins. While the criminal activity didn't have an impact on the field of play, neither arguably does exchanging player gear for tattoos (Ohio State). And the NCAA surely doesn't want the man holding what would be an untouchable winning record to be tainted by criminal behavior of any kind, let alone the criminal acts he was found to be involved in. These are schools, first and foremost, and I find it difficult to quibble with any punitive measures meant to "teach a lesson." And where I fully understand and get that, the crimes were not done for the benefit of the players, the university athletic program, to gain an unfair competitive advantage or [as in the case of tattoos for t-shirts] expose athletes to those who might pay for other things like point shaving after the initial gear/tattoo swap [which is the reason that infraction is there to begin with]. Additionally, I am all about teaching lessons, but to attempt to wipe out a man's entire career spanning several decades is going too far, IMHO. He screwed up and bad. There is no argument here, but he wasn't this evil serial enabler either. Much good in that man and the NCAA is being too knee-jerk on this one, IMHO. And Pete: I'm not at all comparing the crime of child abuse to the erasing of wins or records. The "pettiness" is in the penalty regarding the pretending 111 games didn't happen, not the crime itself or those who perpetrated it/covered it up. I was going to wonder out loud, but found via Google that In wake of Penn State investigation, FSU's Bobby Bowden becomes all-time wins leader I'd be interested in who was on the NCAA panel which decided 111 games would be enough to make that happen. Further, will the NCAA be taking more games away if it is found out Sandusky molested kids before 1998? File this one under: The bridge too far. Edited July 23, 2012 by GoodSpeak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Train Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 In the end, Paterno's legacy was to destroy Penn St. as a football powerhouse. They might never be relevant again. It is going to be close to impossible to recover from losing 80 scholarships over 4-years on top of a 4-year bowl ban. They really were better off with the “Death Penalty”. The NCAA still might punish them even more once all the criminal trials are over. At least the NCAA is allowing all the players to transfer without having to sit out a year. They are also considering allowing the teams that take them to go over their scholarship limits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 File this one under: The bridge too far. Good film, great cast. I wonder why the phrase has gained such currency of late. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Train Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Erasing wins is a pretty standard component of sanctions. Ohio State and USC both forfeited wins and USC was stripped of national championship. Yeah, the NCAA vacates wins all the time. They vacated 12 from Bobby Bowden for example, which allowed Paterno to pass him. John Calipari has had two final four teams whose entire seasons were vacated. Paterno now drops to 5th and 12th for Division 1 FBS and all the Divisions combined. Edited July 23, 2012 by Blue Train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim McG Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 File this one under: The bridge too far. Good film, great cast. I wonder why the phrase has gained such currency of late. Election year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie87 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) I was going to wonder out loud, but found via Google that In wake of Penn State investigation, FSU's Bobby Bowden becomes all-time wins leader In college football the overall all-time wins leader is John Gagliardi, with 484 wins at the Division III level. He's 85 years old and still coach at St. John's University in Minnesota. At the Division I level, the all time leader is Eddie Robinson at Grambling, with 408 wins. Edited July 23, 2012 by Aggie87 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim McG Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Thanks for posting that, Aggie. I feel better now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Train Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) The Big 10 might relax it's rules and allow Penn St. players to transfer within the conference without having to sit out a year and lose a season of eligibility. If that happens you know there is going to be more of an exodus than would be expected. http://espn.go.com/blog/bigten/post/_/id/53716/free-transfers-within-b1g-possible-for-lions Edited July 23, 2012 by Blue Train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Train Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Guess who was the QB for what is now Paterno's last official win? It was his last home game. http://cbsloc.al/P4PceC Edited July 23, 2012 by Blue Train Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Not sure what good it does taking away a dead man's victory total Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Schwartz Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 In the end, Paterno's legacy was to destroy Penn St. as a football powerhouse. They might never be relevant again. It is going to be close to impossible to recover from losing 80 scholarships over 4-years on top of a 4-year bowl ban. They really were better off with the “Death Penalty”. The NCAA still might punish them even more once all the criminal trials are over. At least the NCAA is allowing all the players to transfer without having to sit out a year. They are also considering allowing the teams that take them to go over their scholarship limits. What I found very dissapointing and quite strange in the press conference announcing the penalties, not once was Joe Paterno the former university president's name mentioned by anyone. The sanctions were made as the direct results of the lack of leadership and poor judgement and cover up of the individuals mentioned in the Freeh Report; those same individuals who were fired and who were blamed in no incertain terms in the same report that the NCAA names as being far more complete, thorough (and expensive) than anything they could have come up with themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Nothing to look at folks, just move along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim McG Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Not sure what good it does taking away a dead man's victory total Exactly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Schwartz Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Nothing to look at folks, just move along. What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papsrus Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Not sure what good it does taking away a dead man's victory total Exactly. I suppose part of the purpose of any punishment is to serve as a deterrent. Additionally, the victories were achieved while school leaders, Paterno among them, were covereing up criminal activities. Aside from the deterrent value of wiping them out, is it really a good idea to let the victories of what amounts to a criminal conspiracy stand? Doesn't seem so outrageous to conclude that they shouldn't be. And again, it's not unprecedented to vacate victories as part of sanctions. The scope of the vacated victories is unprecedented, but not the fact that victories were vacated. I don't think you could devise severe enough sanctions to fit the crimes that took place at Penn State. And I'm referring to the cover-up and enabling of a sexual predator, as well as the actions of the sexual predator himself. The victory totals in the record books seem the least of their problems now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim McG Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Not sure what good it does taking away a dead man's victory total Exactly. I suppose part of the purpose of any punishment is to serve as a deterrent. Additionally, the victories were achieved while school leaders, Paterno among them, were covereing up criminal activities. Aside from the deterrent value of wiping them out, is it really a good idea to let the victories of what amounts to a criminal conspiracy stand? Doesn't seem so outrageous to conclude that they shouldn't be. And again, it's not unprecedented to vacate victories as part of sanctions. The scope of the vacated victories is unprecedented, but not the fact that victories were vacated. I don't think you could devise severe enough sanctions to fit the crimes that took place at Penn State. And I'm referring to the cover-up and enabling of a sexual predator, as well as the actions of the sexual predator himself. The victory totals in the record books seem the least of their problems now. I agree. However, it just seemed like a completely unnecessary kick in the ass to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Gee, you think a kick in the ass is unnecessary? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim McG Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Gee, you think a kick in the ass is unnecessary? Um...no. Taking games away and pretending they never happened kicks the wrong people in the ass. To wit: TBH, the only problem I have is with this: "3) All wins from 1998-2011 will be vacated (111 wins). Joe Paterno is no longer major college footballs winningest." What does that do? Besides punishing the student athletes and further besmirching the image of Paterno, how is this at all reasonable? You simply cannot erase history like that and pretend those 111 wins didn't happen. Totally unrelated to the crimes and, quite frankly, nothing less than just piling on which serves no other purpose than to be arbtrarily punitive. Edited July 23, 2012 by GoodSpeak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 Ladies and Gentlemen, an official, certified "hair splitter". Take a bow mister Speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim McG Posted July 23, 2012 Report Share Posted July 23, 2012 (edited) Ladies and Gentlemen, an official, certified "hair splitter". Take a bow mister Speak. Who's splitting hairs? Of all the items listed on the NCAA judgment, #3 was the only one I take exception to...and for the reasons I outlined above. The rest, I think, are more than appropriate punishments for something this heinous and will send a loud and clear message to the rest of the college sports world in this Nation. Why you have a problem with that truly baffles me, Chuck. I thought we already covered this. Edited July 23, 2012 by GoodSpeak Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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