umum_cypher Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 I remember reading an interview with Herbie - 10 years ago maybe? - in which he talked, I think, about going to the Czech republic and being asked about Czech jazz. No such thing, he said, jazz is American: you can be Czech like Miroslav Vitous and play jazz, but that's it. Google's no help. Anyone remember this? A long shot, I know. It's for a piece I'm writing. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete C Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 he said, jazz is American: you can be Czech like Miroslav Vitous and play jazz, but that's it. I wonder how George Mraz felt about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Weiss Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 he said, jazz is American: you can be Czech like Miroslav Vitous and play jazz, but that's it. I wonder how George Mraz felt about that. I think he would agree with Herbie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonnymax Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 I guess Herbie should know. He used to play jazz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted August 20, 2012 Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 I remember reading an interview with Herbie - 10 years ago maybe? - in which he talked, I think, about going to the Czech republic and being asked about Czech jazz. No such thing, he said, jazz is American: you can be Czech like Miroslav Vitous and play jazz, but that's it. Google's no help. Anyone remember this? A long shot, I know. It's for a piece I'm writing. Thanks! If he said that, he's wrong. Anyone for Django, for example? Martial Solal's music isn't profoundly Gallic? Lars Gullin's isn't deeply Swedish? And on and on and on.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 If he said that, he's wrong. Anyone for Django, for example? Martial Solal's music isn't profoundly Gallic? Lars Gullin's isn't deeply Swedish? And on and on and on.... Completely agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 No such thing as speaking one language with a strong accent and/or perspective from another? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 No such thing as speaking one language with a strong accent and/or perspective from another? Sure, but that's not what Hancock was saying -- or so it seems to me. And/or are you saying that, for example, jazz with a strong Czech accent and perspective, if there be such a thing (BTW, on that particular question I just don't know enough to have an opinion) is not Czech jazz but something that's essentially American? BTW, speaking of Vitous, I wouldn't say that there was much of anything about his music that made him sound like a notably/significantly non-American jazz musician. But what, then, of Aladar Pege?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aladár_Pege Not my favorite bassist, but Pege sure sounded Hungarian. In any case, it sounds like Hancock might be talking about ownership from a "No, no, they can't take that away from me" point of view, which is understandable but not necessarily enlightening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 No such thing as speaking one language with a strong accent and/or perspective from another? Sure, but that's not what Hancock was saying -- or so it seems to me...In any case, it sounds like Hancock might be talking about ownership from a "No, no, they can't take that away from me" point of view, which is understandable but not necessarily enlightening. Most importantly, we don't even know if Herbie even said it. Less importantly, it seems to me that if he did say it, we'd need to know exactly what he said, and what else, if anything, he said to go along with it, and in what context was the question even being asked, before it should seem to be anything real and not just a speculation. Least importantly, anybody who plays "jazz" with an "American thing" (and you may not be able to define it, but you know it when you hear it) as the underpinning will always be playing "American jazz with a fill-in-the-blanks accent", and those who don't play with an "American thing" as the underpinning should be neither surprised nor concerned when that music's being defined as "jazz" is a subject of some...discussion. "Gift to the world" and all that, but still.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 And perhaps most important of all - what "American" means now is not the same as what it meant then, nor, likely, what it will mean further on up the road. The whole Euro-Afro-Judaic-Christian collisions/collusions were but Chapter One. Chapters Two & Beyond ain't all about that no more, unless you're hung up on watching the director's cut of Chapter One. I love, genuinely love, America, but it ain't for the faint of heart, nor the creature of habit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 So Jim, is that "American jazz with a fill-in-the-blanks accent" or not? It almost certainly wouldn't be at all if it weren't for American jazz, but the non-American aspects are so strong and so essential to what makes work that I wouldn't want to be Solomon here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Like I said, not for the creature of habit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertoart Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) An interesting comparison is Larry Coryell and John McLaughlin. One a 'native son' another a 'British Blues Boom' progeny. Both in the shadow of Hendrix, both dealing with rock and modal jazz. McLaughlin never sounded like an American guitarist to me, while Coryell always does. I believe Coryell always had an earthier blues accent to his music. McLaughlin always seemed to me, to have a 'European sensibility' in his playing (even something like My Goals Beyond). McLaughlin's music became even more European accented as well, and Coryell ended up digging deeper into the Black music traditions. I am biased towards Jazz as an 'American thing'. So my favourite post Miles-McLaughlin was the Larry Young/Coltrane album he did with Elvin Jones and Joey Defrancesco. With Coryell, I tend to like everything, at least on some level. Edited August 21, 2012 by freelancer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umum_cypher Posted August 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 (edited) Edited August 21, 2012 by umum_cypher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Shearn Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 I wouldn't be too sure if Herbie said that saying there's no such thing as Czech jazz myself. A lot of the ECM stuff from the Norwegian contingent doesn't have what we consider hallmarks of American jazz, but it swings in its own way, and thats why jazz is beautiful because we can add those things and its still jazz. If Herbie made that comment it's strange because wouldn't Mwandishi be very African influenced? It may not be African jazz in the township sense of the word but its definitely African influenced, that music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 If Herbie made that comment it's strange because wouldn't Mwandishi be very African influenced? It may not be African jazz in the township sense of the word but its definitely African influenced, that music. I think it's been pretty well established in other conversations on this board that African-American musicians should not be allowed to claim African influences because everything that's pointed to as "African" gets rebutted as not being exclusively and/or specifically African. Or something like that. The people who make those rebuttals are smarter that me. Or, if not smarter, at least more certain. So hey, sorry guys, your music can't be African and it can't be fully American (or even African-American) without somebody getting their snoot in a snit about it. Must be a tough gig, that's all I can say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJ Shearn Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Yeah, that's true, thinking back to the Baraka thread. African rhythms in jazz have always been pretty scaled down, though there have been attempts (Blakey, Weston) to bring authenticity on it's own terms, but still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Yeah it seems like everybody will admit that it's there until specifics get pointed claimed and then, no, you can't claim THAT one, try again, etc. I think it's bullshit myself, I mean, what's the problem, we got no problems apparently with pointing out every OTHER influence in/to "jazz", but "African", even as a residual/subliminal/genetic memory/whatever seems to upset a lot of people for some reason other than just acknowledging it in a very general sense. It's like an abortion or something, let's...just not talk about it, we had it, now let's move on, please. Please. Me, I'm fine with it, makes perfect sense to me, fits in with what I see and hear, and have seen and heard. But I'm no musicologist, that's for sure, so what do I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 [ Well, I disagree with the original idea (and I'm pretty sure it was Herbie, and it was Vitous, and it was the Czech Republic). But Solal as "profoundly Gallic"? What would that mean? And with all that impressionism, isn't Herbie profoundly "gallic" too? About Solal, I was thinking of his impish, feline wit/playfulness -- impulses/habits that seem to me to crop up in a lot of French art of all sorts, though of course Solal's native land is Algeria. In any case, Herbie's "impressionism" seems to me to be a different kind of thing. If Herbie made that comment it's strange because wouldn't Mwandishi be very African influenced? It may not be African jazz in the township sense of the word but its definitely African influenced, that music. I think it's been pretty well established in other conversations on this board that African-American musicians should not be allowed to claim African influences because everything that's pointed to as "African" gets rebutted as not being exclusively and/or specifically African. Or something like that. The people who make those rebuttals are smarter that me. Or, if not smarter, at least more certain. So hey, sorry guys, your music can't be African and it can't be fully American (or even African-American) without somebody getting their snoot in a snit about it. Must be a tough gig, that's all I can say. Who here is saying it can't be "fully American"? Exclusively and/or wholly American -- perhaps not over the course of time, but fully American in origin and essential development for a good long stretch, sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 There have been discussions in the past, in other threads, that devolve into the whole "can't call it 'African' and 'it's not REALLY 'African-American', there's all this other stuff too" thing, and...I've had enough of it myself. It's like everybody gets to claim something as being "their own" except African-America (in any way you break that hybird apart), which is without question the overwhelming reason why any of this happened in the first place. I mean, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umum_cypher Posted August 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 About Solal, I was thinking of his impish, feline wit/playfulness -- impulses/habits that seem to me to crop up in a lot of French art of all sorts, though of course Solal's native land is Algeria. In any case, Herbie's "impressionism" seems to me to be a different kind of thing. If you wanted to play the lineage game (and it's a mug's game for the most part) you could identify, in pretty much concrete terms, the things that Herbie shares with impressionist French antecedents. "Impish and feline" isn't going to get more concrete than that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umum_cypher Posted August 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 I stand corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted August 21, 2012 Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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