MLB Hot Stove League 2012-13

[Dan Gould]

Joe Poz DESTROYS the argument for Goose:

Could Rivera have done what Gossage did? Well, look at the reliever numbers:

Gossage as a reliever (including postseason):
117-86, 2.77 ERA, 1,588 innings, 1,255 hits, 547 runs, 489 ER, 101 homers, 635 walks, 1,369 Ks.

Rivera as a reliever from 1995-2012 (including postseason):
81-56, 1.91 ERA, 1,310 2/3 innings, 962 hits, 302 runs, 278 ER, 59 homers, 278 walks, 1,191 Ks.

OK, do you see? Rivera was better. A lot better. He was better in cold numbers, and he was a lot better when you take into consideration the eras when they pitched. For Rivera to match Gossage in the basic numbers, he would have had to pitch 278 more innings -- all those multiple innings that Gossage pitched -- and he would have to allow 201 more runs (a tidy 6.51 ERA). He would have had to walk 350 or so batters in those innings, while allowing 42 home runs. And he would have had to do all that in a much lower scoring run environment. I'm guessing here, of course, but I think he could have managed it.

More here.

[Quincy]

Joe Poz DESTROYS the argument for Goose:

Mo's a big loser on facial hair though. Face it, we want something there on our firemen. Sparky, Rollie, Goose, Mad Hungarian...Gee, I seem to be stuck in the '70s.

[Dan Gould]

Maybe, but I also enjoyed how Poz points out that Gossage's self-regard is predicated on only a handlful of his major league seasons when he really made all those multi-inning appearances. At a certain point, Goose was used as a standard closer, and eventually he was just another middle reliever and then wrapped up as a mop-up man (check out the number of games finished he had in his last season, without a single save).

Mariano has been an elite closer his entire career, including at an age when Goose was about the least important guy in the bullpen.

[PHILLYQ]

He also got his ass kicked by the D'Backs in the World Series and the BoSox in the ALCS.

It was AWESOME!

he didn't get his ass kicked by the D-Backs, he made a bad throw on a bunt and a bloop over a drawn-in infield won the game for the D-Backs.

The outcome was the same; that's all that matters. The Yankees have managed to avoid the natural order and cycle of things in baseball for far too long. Hopefully, they'll be paying for that over the next several years. They now appear even more mismatched than the Knicks, so I'm guessing that they will be sucking at least for a few years.

So if a guy trips and breaks his nose it's the same as if he were in a fight and got his nose broken because the result is the same?!!! In the game that Goodspeak referred to, Rivera made a bad throw and a bloop over a drawn-in infield was the game/series winning hit. How can anyone characterize that as an 'ass-kicking'?

So, Mo NEVER got his ass kicked?

Just playin' devil's advocate here. It's pretty easy to say, and as obvious as obvious gets in this day and age, that he will be called the best RP of all time. I've seen him pitch often enough; I know he's good. He's probably a first ballot hall of famer. Great. But, how would he have done if his talents weren't so specialized and focused on one inning dominance? Is he as good as Goose Gossage, for instance? Just asking. I know it's difficult to make comparisons from era to era, but there's nothing that states that all later era players surpass all earlier era players.

I never said that, I said that in Game 7 of the 201 World Series, Rivera DID NOT get his 'ass kicked'. He made a bad throw on a bunt, which was the key play that doomed the Yanks. The D-backs, to their credit, took advantage of it. If he got his ass kicked that time, wouldn't there be a bunch of hard hit balls? He hurt himself severely with the bad throw, there's no way anyone who understands English would call that an ass kicking.

[Soulstation1]

George Brett owned Gossage in the post-season

[PHILLYQ]

George Brett owned Gossage in the post-season

Was the 'pine tar' HR off Gossage?

[Soulstation1]

Yes sir

30th year anniversary this season for the PT game

I feel old..,,

[Quincy]

Edgar Martinez owned Mariano. 10 for 16, 2 HRs and 6 RBI (and 1 for 3 in 2 playoffs). Just have to mention that for yet another small but positive mark in Edgar's file for his hopeless & nonexistent Hall of Fame bid (which I'm not that upset about - I just like Edgar).

My facial hair joke earlier was more a comment on how most relievers either play up the macho angle or act (or are) nutty. Not Rivera (Metallica intro aside) as he's often referred to as elegant and looks more like Fred Astaire than a typical reliever. He makes it look effortless which probably bothers some people (along with his being a Yankee). I hadn't realized Goose was mouthing off.

Despite how he jokes about the use of "only" I think Poz downplays the wear & tear of Goasage's early usage and gets sloppy with numbers. When he says Gossage had an ERA of 3.75 in one inning outings was this as a middle reliever when the following pitcher can do damage to the removed pitcher's ERA? Was it when he was older, and as typical with most high velocity fastball pitchers no longer as fast? He's just not very clear.

Rather than usage maybe Goose should be complaining that he never thought to use (invent?) the cutter. Had he had that losing velocity wouldn't have mattered as much as he aged like a normal person. And it's easier on the arm/elbow compared to Sutter's splitter or McGraw's screwball.

It's a couple of years old but the Bleacher Report did a top 20 of worst blown saves. It's in the semi-annoying slideshow format. It brought back some painful memories even when the team I was rooting for won.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/730263-mlb-power-rankings-mariano-rivera-and-the-20-worst-blown-saves-in-history

Edited March 12, 2013 by Quincy

[paul secor]

Mariano Rivera's career and record speaks for itself. It makes no difference what anyone here or anyone else says - either pro or con.

[Quincy]

Mariano Rivera's career and record speaks for itself. It makes no difference what anyone here or anyone else says - either pro or con.

True, but if that attitude extended to musical recommendations too there wouldn't be much activity here.

[JETman]

Mariano Rivera's career and record speaks for itself. It makes no difference what anyone here or anyone else says - either pro or con.

True, but if that attitude extended to musical recommendations too there wouldn't be much activity here.

Right. Notice the use of the phrase "devil's advocate" in my first post. Obviously there's more than just stats to consider here. Say you've got a great relief pitcher who regularly pitches dominantly for 2-3 innings per appearance for the first 5 years of his career. How likely is it that he will last until age 40 whatever doing this well? Maybe circumstances have played at least a small part in Rivera's dominance for so long. Much in the same way, I would argue, that the Devils' goaltender Marty Brodeur's stats were greatly boosted by the stingy, boring defensive style that the team has played for the majority of his career. There's no arguing that Brodeur is a great goalie, but it's difficult to determine exactly how great if he's only facing 15-20 shots per game.

[Tim McG]

He also got his ass kicked by the D'Backs in the World Series and the BoSox in the ALCS.

It was AWESOME!

he didn't get his ass kicked by the D-Backs, he made a bad throw on a bunt and a bloop over a drawn-in infield won the game for the D-Backs.

The outcome was the same; that's all that matters. The Yankees have managed to avoid the natural order and cycle of things in baseball for far too long. Hopefully, they'll be paying for that over the next several years. They now appear even more mismatched than the Knicks, so I'm guessing that they will be sucking at least for a few years.

So if a guy trips and breaks his nose it's the same as if he were in a fight and got his nose broken because the result is the same?!!! In the game that Goodspeak referred to, Rivera made a bad throw and a bloop over a drawn-in infield was the game/series winning hit. How can anyone characterize that as an 'ass-kicking'?

So, Mo NEVER got his ass kicked?

Just playin' devil's advocate here. It's pretty easy to say, and as obvious as obvious gets in this day and age, that he will be called the best RP of all time. I've seen him pitch often enough; I know he's good. He's probably a first ballot hall of famer. Great. But, how would he have done if his talents weren't so specialized and focused on one inning dominance? Is he as good as Goose Gossage, for instance? Just asking. I know it's difficult to make comparisons from era to era, but there's nothing that states that all later era players surpass all earlier era players.

I never said that, I said that in Game 7 of the 201 World Series, Rivera DID NOT get his 'ass kicked'. He made a bad throw on a bunt, which was the key play that doomed the Yanks. The D-backs, to their credit, took advantage of it. If he got his ass kicked that time, wouldn't there be a bunch of hard hit balls? He hurt himself severely with the bad throw, there's no way anyone who understands English would call that an ass kicking.

I teach English and Speech.

Mariano got his ass kicked.

Blaming it on a bad throw is, IMHO, a justification for a piss poor outing wherein he couldn't get anybody out. The D-Backs pounced on him and delivered good old fashioned beat down. The guy didn't finish the game. He fell apart.He was relieved by another guy. Yankees lost the WS and after leading 3 games to none. Now if you want to call it something else, feel free. But that was an ass kicking if I ever saw one. The score and on the field play are secondary to that.

Having said that, I still say he is one of the best closers the game has ever seen.

Edited March 12, 2013 by GoodSpeak

[Dan Gould]

You need remedial English Tim.

If a walk/error/fisted bloop equates to an 'ass-kicking' then what the hell do you call the blown save(s) by Byun Yun Kim earlier in that series? Or, to reference epically blown saves by Rivera, the three-run homerun hit by Billy Mueller in the 2004 regular season "A-Rod-Tek Brawl" game?

My Red Sox beat him on a walk/stolen base/single up the middle in Game 4. Its a blown save, not an ass-kicking.

He blew a save in Game 5 on a sac fly. That was no ass-kicking either.

[Tim McG]

You need remedial English Tim.

If a walk/error/fisted bloop equates to an 'ass-kicking' then what the hell do you call the blown save(s) by Byun Yun Kim earlier in that series? Or, to reference epically blown saves by Rivera, the three-run homerun hit by Billy Mueller in the 2004 regular season "A-Rod-Tek Brawl" game?

My Red Sox beat him on a walk/stolen base/single up the middle in Game 4. Its a blown save, not an ass-kicking.

He blew a save in Game 5 on a sac fly. That was no ass-kicking either.

All a part of the game, Dan. And we're talking about Game 7 not Game 5 of the BoSox game [and, if you recall I said the Bosox busted his chops, not kicked his ass; speaking of remedial English...]

I watched as one of the best in the biz just came apart like a cheap watch. Rivera couldn't control the ball, missed his spots and was obviously shaken to his core when Gonzales nailed that bloop single off him. He got tagged, Dan. Big time....aka, an ass kicking.

Edited March 12, 2013 by GoodSpeak

[Dan Gould]

Don't mention remedial english and then point out that you used the term "busted his chops": busting someone's chops means to verbally harass them.

Its hardly surprising therefore that you think the D-Backs 'kicked his ass'.

Beating a reliever that good is enough.

[Blue Train]

From just two days ago in post 440.

He also got his ass kicked by the D'Backs in the World Series and the BoSox in the ALCS.

It was AWESOME!

[Tim McG]

Don't mention remedial english and then point out that you used the term "busted his chops": busting someone's chops means to verbally harass them.

Its hardly surprising therefore that you think the D-Backs 'kicked his ass'.

Beating a reliever that good is enough.

Slang is not remedial. It would be similar to a colloquialism. Perfectly acceptable in modern English language usage.

Accusing someone of saying something they never said, however, is akin to remedial reading skill.

Do we really have to go down this road again, Dan? Stick to baseball.

From just two days ago in post 440.

He also got his ass kicked by the D'Backs in the World Series and the BoSox in the ALCS.

It was AWESOME!

He was referring to my BoSox comment.

Try to follow along.

Edited March 12, 2013 by GoodSpeak

[Soulstation1]

Mo is the only 600/5 member

Nuff said

[JSngry]

Farewell Jeff Sullivan.

http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2013/3/12/4096222/lookout-landed

[JETman]

Mo is the only 600/5 member

Nuff said

Takes a team to win 5 titles. A team of highly paid, easily bought baseball players.

[Noj]

I'm excited to see if the Dodgers can put a winner together in the near future. Maybe not this season, but these new owners sure have opened up the checkbooks (perhaps not in the wisest ways, but hell if McCourt ever even tried). These guys did it for the Atlanta Braves, maybe they'll bring winning baseball to LA. It's been ages of discouraging baseball for me since '88, which I watched happen with my brothers and parents and was the last time I can remember really loving baseball. Since then it's been hope the Dodgers make the playoffs, and when they have it's been root hard and be disappointed.

Haters gonna hate.

[Tim McG]

I'm excited to see if the Dodgers can put a winner together in the near future. Maybe not this season, but these new owners sure have opened up the checkbooks (perhaps not in the wisest ways, but hell if McCourt ever even tried). These guys did it for the Atlanta Braves, maybe they'll bring winning baseball to LA. It's been ages of discouraging baseball for me since '88, which I watched happen with my brothers and parents and was the last time I can remember really loving baseball. Since then it's been hope the Dodgers make the playoffs, and when they have it's been root hard and be disappointed.

Haters gonna hate.

TBH, I think the Dodgers will be a real force this year. Pitching looks pretty darn impressive, IMHO. Kershaw is always a tough guy to hit and with the addition of Grenike they have a bonafide 1-2 punch in the rotation.

Naturally, I hope my guys win the West pennant, but the NL West is always a very competitive division. Should be fun to watch if everybody stays healthy.

Besides, I'll see your frustration with the Dodgers and raise you five decades of Giants baseball futility. It could be worse, Jon

Edited March 13, 2013 by GoodSpeak

[Soulstation1]

Picked up a 2013 Topps $5 Rack Pack from Target

First cards I've purchased since ~ 1990

Probably make a complete set

[John Litweiler]

Obviously there's more than just stats to consider here. Say you've got a great relief pitcher who regularly pitches dominantly for 2-3 innings per appearance for the first 5 years of his career. How likely is it that he will last until age 40 whatever doing this well?

Hoyt Wilhelm

[Tim McG]

Different era, my friend.