Archie Shepp free jazz recommendations?

[1stpress]

I've read that Archie Shepp is one of the guys to take a listen to if you're into free jazz. What are his most experimental albums? Below are some albums that I have in heavy rotation right now. I'm hoping he has something in that ballpark. The more dissonant the better.

Ceceil Taylor - Conquistador

Albert Ayler - Spiritual Unity

John Coltrane - Ascension

Eric Dolphy - Out There

Ornette Coleman - This is Our Music

Pharoah Sanders - Tauhid

McCoy Tyner - Extensions

Elvin Jones - Poly Currents

[king ubu]

Lots of good stuff on Impulse ... "Mama Too Tight" is probably my favourite, but "Live in San Francisco" is great (the CD from the 90s is a "hidden" twofer), as are "On This Night", "Four for Trane", "Fire Music" ...

[1stpress]

Lots of good stuff on Impulse ... "Mama Too Tight" is probably my favourite, but "Live in San Francisco" is great (the CD from the 90s is a "hidden" twofer), as are "On This Night", "Four for Trane", "Fire Music" ...

Out of the albums that you mentioned, which would you say are the least structured?

[B. Clugston]

Live at the Donaueschingen Music Festival and Three for a Quarter, One for a Dime (which is on the Live in San Francisco CD) are both album-length blowouts. But don't expect anything like Spiritual Unity or Pharoah Sanders in his wilder moments--Shepp was always mindful of the tradition.

[king ubu]

Lots of good stuff on Impulse ... "Mama Too Tight" is probably my favourite, but "Live in San Francisco" is great (the CD from the 90s is a "hidden" twofer), as are "On This Night", "Four for Trane", "Fire Music" ...

Out of the albums that you mentioned, which would you say are the least structured?

San Francisco, probably, or rather the bonus album therein.

But plenty of stuff on those in your list is pretty structured (Dolphy and Tyner for one, and Ornette's c major music, too, really).

Donauseschingen certainly is a good suggestion, too!

I don't see "lack of structure" as a point of interest, rather how structure (or form) is used, how tradition is being expanded and stretched into new areas (which is maybe why "Mama Too Tight" is my favourite Shepp, you can hear Ellington in there ... and which is why ultimately I prefer Mingus or Dolphy or Ornette to, say, Charles Gayle, Frank Wright and others that are more on the berserk end of the spectrum.

As for "the more dissonant ..." - different genre, but try some Phill Niblock (make sure no animals are harmed, though).

[Leeway]

FOUR FOR TRANE

FIRE MUSIC

LIVE AT DONAUESCHINGEN MUSIC FESTIVAL

WITH THE NEW YORK CONTEMPORARY FIVE

With Shepp, the earlier the better I think. Downside is that some of that early stuff can be hard to obtain, example BLACK GIPSY on the America (LP) label.

[paul secor]

For my ears, Archie Shepp's music is all part of one piece, whether he's playing more freely or more structured. It's all Archie Shepp music. When you say that you're looking for something that's "the more dissonant the better", it seems to me as if you're trying to compartmentalize his music, rather than accept it for what it is.

edit - Earlier discussions of Archie Shepp's music which you might find interesting:

++shepp

Edited November 9, 2013 by paul secor

[Blue Train]

Most of everything has been mentioned....

The Magic of Ju-Ju....just for the title track alone. As in, the Lee Morgan Sidewinder--like with the first track.

Attica Blues

Blase

Yasmina, a Black Woman

Coltrane/Shepp New Things

Him and Horace Parlan

I Know About the Life....

Edited November 9, 2013 by Blue Train

[1stpress]

For my ears, Archie Shepp's music is all part of one piece, whether he's playing more freely or more structured. It's all Archie Shepp music. When you say that you're looking for something that's "the more dissonant the better", it seems to me as if you're trying to compartmentalize his music, rather than accept it for what it is.

edit - Earlier discussions of Archie Shepp's music which you might find interesting:

++shepp

Your comments are not helpful in the least; they actually come off as quite smug. His music is already compartmentalized... into albums. I'm trying to determine which of those albums delve furthest into the arena of experimental dissonance of tones and rhythms. Can you hear the glaring differences between "Blue Train" and "Interstellar Space" and understand why a person might more interested in hearing one over the other at a given point in time?

[jlhoots]

For my ears, Archie Shepp's music is all part of one piece, whether he's playing more freely or more structured. It's all Archie Shepp music. When you say that you're looking for something that's "the more dissonant the better", it seems to me as if you're trying to compartmentalize his music, rather than accept it for what it is.

edit - Earlier discussions of Archie Shepp's music which you might find interesting:

++shepp

Your comments are not helpful in the least; they actually come off as quite smug. His music is already compartmentalized... into albums. I'm trying to determine which of those albums delve furthest into the arena of experimental dissonance of tones and rhythms. Can you hear the glaring differences between "Blue Train" and "Interstellar Space" and understand why a person might more interested in hearing one over the other at a given point in time?

I don't think paul secor is being "smug".

Take some time & look at the discussion threads he suggested.

Shepp did some great CDs on Venus, but they're probably too "tame" for you.

[1stpress]

Lots of good stuff on Impulse ... "Mama Too Tight" is probably my favourite, but "Live in San Francisco" is great (the CD from the 90s is a "hidden" twofer), as are "On This Night", "Four for Trane", "Fire Music" ...

Out of the albums that you mentioned, which would you say are the least structured?

San Francisco, probably, or rather the bonus album therein.

But plenty of stuff on those in your list is pretty structured (Dolphy and Tyner for one, and Ornette's c major music, too, really).

Donauseschingen certainly is a good suggestion, too!

I don't see "lack of structure" as a point of interest, rather how structure (or form) is used, how tradition is being expanded and stretched into new areas (which is maybe why "Mama Too Tight" is my favourite Shepp, you can hear Ellington in there ... and which is why ultimately I prefer Mingus or Dolphy or Ornette to, say, Charles Gayle, Frank Wright and others that are more on the berserk end of the spectrum.

As for "the more dissonant ..." - different genre, but try some Phill Niblock (make sure no animals are harmed, though).

At the present time, a lack of traditional structure and consonance is not only a point of interest for me, it's my primary interest. I'm currently interested in hearing the least traditional, least structured offerings in each artist's catalog. I'm less interested in hearing a representative sampling of Artie Shepp's work than I am in hearing his least structured albums.

Edited November 9, 2013 by 1stpress

[Blue Train]

Right now I can't tell what you want....because not a single recording you listed....all I whom I have and enjoy can't be defined under "least structured albums".


Several, I don't even consider more than avant-garde. Some free jazz, but compared to what came later from some of them it's bop in comparison. Never mind the fence-sitters in your list.

Free imrpov is what you seem to want, but only Cecil Taylor from that list went there years after Conquistador....and even he really isn't completely free improv.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Blue Train

[sidewinder]

Can't go wrong with 'On This Night', 'Fire Music' and 'Mama Too Tight'. He's also playing the London Jazz Festival in a couple of weeks time with an 'Attica Blues Big Band' conducted by Jimmy Owens. Tempting..

[JohnS]

For me the earlier records are most rewarding. I'd recommend

His recordings with Cecil Taylor

New York Contemporary Five

Four For Trane (a classic of the period)

On This Night.

Edited November 9, 2013 by JohnS

[tomatamot]

Live at the Donaueschingen Music Festival and Three for a Quarter, One for a Dime (which is on the Live in San Francisco CD) are both album-length blowouts.

But don't expect anything like Spiritual Unity or Pharoah Sanders in his wilder moments--

Shepp was always mindful of the tradition.

Shepp recorded also 4-6 Ballad albums for the Japanese Venus record company in the early 90ties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you can find....................go for it.

[1stpress]

Right now I can't tell what you want....because not a single recording you listed....all I whom I have and enjoy can't be defined under "least structured albums".

Several, I don't even consider more than avant-garde. Some free jazz, but compared to what came later from some of them it's bop in comparison. Never mind the fence-sitters in your list.

Free imrpov is what you seem to want, but only Cecil Taylor from that list went there years after Conquistador....and even he really isn't completely free improv.

This is exactly the type of input I'm looking for, please elaborate! When you say, "but compared to what came later from some of them", what specific albums are you referencing? I can't afford to buy each artists full catalog, so I'm trying to hone in on each artists least structured work. What would you recommend for Shepp and the aforementioned list of guys if I want to hear their most far out, experimental stuff?

[paul secor]

For my ears, Archie Shepp's music is all part of one piece, whether he's playing more freely or more structured. It's all Archie Shepp music. When you say that you're looking for something that's "the more dissonant the better", it seems to me as if you're trying to compartmentalize his music, rather than accept it for what it is.

edit - Earlier discussions of Archie Shepp's music which you might find interesting:

++shepp

Your comments are not helpful in the least; they actually come off as quite smug. His music is already compartmentalized... into albums. I'm trying to determine which of those albums delve furthest into the arena of experimental dissonance of tones and rhythms. Can you hear the glaring differences between "Blue Train" and "Interstellar Space" and understand why a person might more interested in hearing one over the other at a given point in time?

I didn't intend to be smug. I just don't think that you can have a sense of an artist's music by listening to one aspect of it.

I can hear the differences between Blue Train and Interstellar Space. I also hear the similarities. That's the point I was trying to make.

I also included the two links in the hope that you might read through them and perhaps learn more about Archie Shepp's music.

If that's being smug - so be it.

[jlhoots]

Live at the Donaueschingen Music Festival and Three for a Quarter, One for a Dime (which is on the Live in San Francisco CD) are both album-length blowouts.

But don't expect anything like Spiritual Unity or Pharoah Sanders in his wilder moments--

Shepp was always mindful of the tradition.

Shepp recorded also 4-6 Ballad albums for the Japanese Venus record company in the early 90ties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you can find....................go for it.

See post #10 in this thread.

[JSngry]

What's being said is that Shepp was never a musical/formalist extender like Taylor nearly as much as he was a re-molder of traditional/vernacular vocabulary. The only difference between him playing changes and not is where he puts the notes. Everything else pretty much stays the same.

So, your question as initially asked is perhaps not as on-point as it could be.

But if you check out On This Night, The Magic Of JuJu, & The Way Ahead you'll hear Shepp in contexts that suggest more of what you're looking for in terms of formal considerations. If you can get the LP version of Three For A Quarter One For A Dime, you can also get a whole big lot of one same thing, but the value/quantity ratio of that record is definitely open to question.

Also, don't sleep on Conversations, a later (1999) Delmark album of Shepp joining Kahil El'Zabar's Ritual Trio.

[tomatamot]

Live at the Donaueschingen Music Festival and Three for a Quarter, One for a Dime (which is on the Live in San Francisco CD) are both album-length blowouts.

But don't expect anything like Spiritual Unity or Pharoah Sanders in his wilder moments--

Shepp was always mindful of the tradition.

Shepp recorded also 4-6 Ballad albums for the Japanese Venus record company in the early 90ties!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you can find....................go for it.

See post #10 in this thread.

Sorry JLHooter y`re funtastic!!

[Blue Train]

Right now I can't tell what you want....because not a single recording you listed....all I whom I have and enjoy can't be defined under "least structured albums".

Several, I don't even consider more than avant-garde. Some free jazz, but compared to what came later from some of them it's bop in comparison. Never mind the fence-sitters in your list.

Free imrpov is what you seem to want, but only Cecil Taylor from that list went there years after Conquistador....and even he really isn't completely free improv.

This is exactly the type of input I'm looking for, please elaborate! When you say, "but compared to what came later from some of them", what specific albums are you referencing? I can't afford to buy each artists full catalog, so I'm trying to hone in on each artists least structured work. What would you recommend for Shepp and the aforementioned list of guys if I want to hear their most far out, experimental stuff?

Keeping in mind I don't know what kind of budget and I am sure others can give their own list.

Ornette Coleman - Free Jazz (it's where the genre's name comes from. Dolphy is also involved. If possible just get Beauty is a Rare Thing....it will include duplicate the one you have....but it's the one period everyone thinks about with Coleman. Also adding in Live @ the Golden Circle, Vol 1. & 2. Coleman even breaks out the violin and trumpet!)

Eric Dolphy - Out to Lunch (4 years after Out There and really is the Dolphy recording.)

You didn't mention him....but just adding Andrew Hill's Point of Departure....Dolphy is involved. Actually, you can't go wrong with anything involving Dolphy as sideman. What the hell Oliver Nelson's The Blues and the Abstract Truth. Anything with him and Charles Mingus.....and while no Dolphy is involved....Mingus' The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady should be any collection of someone that likes things more out there. There is a new Mosiac Mingus with Dolphy....but the cheaper option of them together live....Charles Mingus Sextet with Eric Dolphy Cornell 1964....The Great Concert of Charles Mingus.

Coltrane - The Complete 1961 Village Vanguard Recordings (Coltrane and Dolphy playing on this irritated critics that it was called anti-Jazz. Both of them actually responded to that.....and the rest of it is a must if you don't have it....also ).

Live at the Half Note: One Down, One Up

Now you want Coltrane in full fire burning the paint down off walls.....The Olatunji Concert: The Last Live Recording. You have to marvel that it was only 2 months before he died from liver cancer and all the pain he had to be going through.

Pharaoh Sanders - I will admit I prefer him as a sideman.....but as leader for me it's Karma.

Now with Cecil Taylor. Do you like solo piano, or do you only want group recordings....and just how out there are you interested in?

Albert Ayler - Do you just want studio recordings, or are live ones okay?

P.S. You need to hunt down JSngry's EPIC "Moses to the Mountaintop" post about Interstellar Space. When I first came across it on one of my digs on here....I sent it to everyone I knew....but especially those that didn't like Jazz. The Coltrane Estate probably had a bump in royalties on it that day. Also, his post about Albert Ayler was equally EPIC!...pretty sure it had the same affect on any royalties.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Blue Train

[ElginThompson]

I'd add Archie Shepp/Bill Dixon Quartet (LP same title). Maybe even a little Black Gypsy.

[king ubu]

What would you recommend for Shepp and the aforementioned list of guys if I want to hear their most far out, experimental stuff?

I guess you might think I'm being smug now, but if you're really into the dissonant, experimental stuff, I think your list is flawed to start with

You won't get too far there with Dolphy, and hardly anywhere with Elvin or Tyner.

You could try thinks like the Parker/Guy/Lytton, Peter Brötzmann (with Schlippenbach and Bennink), Derek Bailey etc. But that would all be beyond the narrower scope of what's usually referred to as jazz (and in some folks' opinion probably way beyond even the broadest scope).

Anyway, with Ayler, I'd try the blow-outs from Cleveland with Frank Wright joining in (available on the "Holy Ghost" box), with Ornette ... not sure he gets very dissonant, maybe "Skies of Europe"? , with Taylor, why not try the larger bands stuff, like "Winged Serpent"?

[jlhoots]

Borbetomagus

[medjuck]

Speaking of Shepp (and changing the topic) anyone besides me get the download of his new kickstarter cd? I really like it though it definitely doesn't fir into what we're talking about here. The hard copy should arrive by the end of the month.