Stanley Crouch Parker biography reviewed

[Larry Kart]

You can compartmentalise the issues all you want and say that because Marsalis and Crouch are involved with ordinary Mannerisms that the greater truth they express is not a universal Black truth. But it is. If the same message is coming from Gary Bartz or someone else with artistic and/or real street cache is it still a misreading of reality. Lester Bowie spoke of much the same things. Especially in regard to the 'de-Blackening' of Jazz. Every Black musician with a mind to speak out says the same things. They all aren't deluded, paranoid, jealous or money and power hungry which seems to be the standard riposte to anyone that asserts their right to intellectual property and how they choose to represent it.

If by you "controlled by people who read the Torah" is an "ordinary mannerism," you must hang out in some interesting places.

'ordinary mannerism' is obviously a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes, not the racism inherent in the WORDS attributed to them (Marsalis/Crouch).

As in -mannerism - in the manner of - or perhaps even an actual Jazz Mannerism as a specific movement, which it essentially was/is.

Funny how this board is peppered with people who vehemently respond to the heightened racist tones of Black musicians and writers who transgress the 'brotherhood of man', when assertively claiming the music for their own or highlighting the unequal or exploitative practices of the past (and their current modes of White-out), yet fail to register that their own assertions or support for the reverse racism - or it's all a part of a whole' whinging of a bunch of peripheral self centred egotists are just as 'racially' vile as the shit they are outraged by.

"'ordinary mannerism' is obviously a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes, not the racism inherent in the WORDS attributed to them (Marsalis/Crouch).

"As in -mannerism - in the manner of - or perhaps even an actual Jazz Mannerism as a specific movement, which it essentially was/is."

Sorry -- but it sure wasn't obvious to me that "ordinary Mannerism" was "a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes" rather than to the relative ordinariness among black musicians and the black community as a whole of anger against white society. In any case, though, do you mean something like "Marsalis' music is traditionally inclined in manner, i.e. in style"? I'm genuinely at a loss here.

Also, what then are you referring to by "the greater truth [that Marsalis and Crouch] express," which is also a "universal Black truth"? I thought that you meant "the greater truth they express" and the "universal Black truth" to refer to anger against white oppressors. No?

[robertoart]

You can compartmentalise the issues all you want and say that because Marsalis and Crouch are involved with ordinary Mannerisms that the greater truth they express is not a universal Black truth. But it is. If the same message is coming from Gary Bartz or someone else with artistic and/or real street cache is it still a misreading of reality. Lester Bowie spoke of much the same things. Especially in regard to the 'de-Blackening' of Jazz. Every Black musician with a mind to speak out says the same things. They all aren't deluded, paranoid, jealous or money and power hungry which seems to be the standard riposte to anyone that asserts their right to intellectual property and how they choose to represent it.

If by you "controlled by people who read the Torah" is an "ordinary mannerism," you must hang out in some interesting places.

'ordinary mannerism' is obviously a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes, not the racism inherent in the WORDS attributed to them (Marsalis/Crouch).

As in -mannerism - in the manner of - or perhaps even an actual Jazz Mannerism as a specific movement, which it essentially was/is.

Funny how this board is peppered with people who vehemently respond to the heightened racist tones of Black musicians and writers who transgress the 'brotherhood of man', when assertively claiming the music for their own or highlighting the unequal or exploitative practices of the past (and their current modes of White-out), yet fail to register that their own assertions or support for the reverse racism - or it's all a part of a whole' whinging of a bunch of peripheral self centred egotists are just as 'racially' vile as the shit they are outraged by.

"'ordinary mannerism' is obviously a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes, not the racism inherent in the WORDS attributed to them (Marsalis/Crouch).

"As in -mannerism - in the manner of - or perhaps even an actual Jazz Mannerism as a specific movement, which it essentially was/is."

Sorry -- but it sure wasn't obvious to me that "ordinary Mannerism" was "a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes" rather than to the relative ordinariness among black musicians and the black community as a whole of anger against white society. In any case, though, do you mean something like "Marsalis' music is traditionally inclined in manner, i.e. in style"? I'm genuinely at a loss here.

Also, what then are you referring to by "the greater truth [that Marsalis and Crouch] express," which is also a "universal Black truth"? I thought that you meant "the greater truth they express" and the "universal Black truth" to refer to anger against white oppressors. No?

Well obviously the Marsalis movement was a way to make In The Tradition a 'classical' or canonical music. The rise of Jazz education faculties across the world has aided that.

Surely you're familiar with 'mannered' or 'mannerist' - when an artistic expression attempts to replicate the formal characteristics of a previous moment but fails to grasp its essence. So maybe 'In The Manner of" as opposed to in the tradition. Failing to grasp the essence may not be a failure to grasp the language - just a difference in time and place. I like the fact that Marsalis and co claimed the music back as a Black Classical Music even if I never really want to listen to their outputs.

With regard to universal Black and Indigenous truth, well the words Marsalis uses in the highlighted paragraphs are all fairly matter of fact to anyone that has a politicised identity. Obviously the specifics of his anti-semiticism are particular to an American or New York context.

It seems to me, from reading the Marsalis quotes, that he is conflating the White Supremacy of the US fathers, with the modern equivalent concerning Jazz and Jewish people controlling the production, distribution and economy of Black Music. And then he equates this with the 'ever increasing decline of the musics negroidery and purpose'. And he also says that because Jews were outsiders and marginalised people in Europe, they were able to come to America and exploit an even more marginalised and dehumanised peoples.

When we talk about some aspects of universal truths, this is equivalent to an Australian Indigenous reality, because essentially the most marginalised and mistreated people of English speaking Europe (convicts and low class 'adventure capitalists'), came here and stole, exploited and controlled Aboriginal people and lands. Because Aboriginal people were considered nothing more than savages and apes, even the convicts were re-invested with a degree of 'culture'.

It seems that this 'conflating' of White Supremacy and 20thC Jewish exploitation of Black communities seems to be a common denominator amongst Black Intellectuals across the board, from Politics to Culture.

Are there any Black intellectuals that write specifically about the causes and symptoms of this?

Has Tavis Smiley and Cornell West ever done a show about this?

Democracy Now?

I remember Eddie Murphy taking the piss out of Jesse Jackson!

Don't Let Me Down Hymie Town!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNz5XnvZHhk

[robertoart]

It's making me sick to read this.

What's making you sick?

The fact that the two guys I have read you champion on these boards as 'good guys' (Marsalis and Crouch), were still prepared to use extreme racialised language in their own 'Corporate Black Power' ambitions.

Yes. And I defended them, not the same as championing them, when unfairly maligned. This is different, and sickening. Anyway, I may have changed my views from a Wynton-hater but it really doesn't matter to me much. Both those guys were nice to me when I met them, and the only thing I have to go on is experience. But this is indefensible and anyway I don't want to get into a whole thing on it---doubt that the rest of the board does either.

So just let the troll in post 230 'put it out there', and let it hang in the air.

And the Black face of jazz, can forever be dismissed as synonymous with anti-semiticism and reverse racism, or even worse .........bad Fusion

[robertoart]

This is 'nice' too.

Cornel West > Quotes > Quotable Quote

“Black anti-semitism is a form of underdog resentment and envy, directed at another underdog who has made it in American society. The remarkable upward mobility of American Jews--rooted chiefly in a history and culture that places a premium on higher education and self-organization--easily lends itself to myths of Jewish unity and homogeneity that have gained currency among other groups, especially among relatively unorganized groups like black Americans. The high visibility of Jews in the upper reaches of the academy, journalism, the entertainment industry, and the professions--though less so percentage-wise in corporate America and national political office--is viewed less as a result of hard work and success fairly won and more as a matter of favoritism and nepotism among Jews. Ironically, calls for black solidarity and achievement are often modeled on myths of Jewish unity--as both groups respond to American xenophobia and racism. But in times such as these, some blacks view Jews as obstacles rather than allies in the struggle for racial justice.”
― Cornel West

Edited November 25, 2013 by freelancer

[Larry Kart]

Just deleted a batch of name-calling/personal attacks on this thread, including responses to name-calling that may not be quite name-calling but quote/refer to the original name-calling. You know who you are and what you're doing. Stop.

[Larry Kart]

You can compartmentalise the issues all you want and say that because Marsalis and Crouch are involved with ordinary Mannerisms that the greater truth they express is not a universal Black truth. But it is. If the same message is coming from Gary Bartz or someone else with artistic and/or real street cache is it still a misreading of reality. Lester Bowie spoke of much the same things. Especially in regard to the 'de-Blackening' of Jazz. Every Black musician with a mind to speak out says the same things. They all aren't deluded, paranoid, jealous or money and power hungry which seems to be the standard riposte to anyone that asserts their right to intellectual property and how they choose to represent it.

If by you "controlled by people who read the Torah" is an "ordinary mannerism," you must hang out in some interesting places.

'ordinary mannerism' is obviously a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes, not the racism inherent in the WORDS attributed to them (Marsalis/Crouch).

As in -mannerism - in the manner of - or perhaps even an actual Jazz Mannerism as a specific movement, which it essentially was/is.

Funny how this board is peppered with people who vehemently respond to the heightened racist tones of Black musicians and writers who transgress the 'brotherhood of man', when assertively claiming the music for their own or highlighting the unequal or exploitative practices of the past (and their current modes of White-out), yet fail to register that their own assertions or support for the reverse racism - or it's all a part of a whole' whinging of a bunch of peripheral self centred egotists are just as 'racially' vile as the shit they are outraged by.

"'ordinary mannerism' is obviously a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes, not the racism inherent in the WORDS attributed to them (Marsalis/Crouch).

"As in -mannerism - in the manner of - or perhaps even an actual Jazz Mannerism as a specific movement, which it essentially was/is."

Sorry -- but it sure wasn't obvious to me that "ordinary Mannerism" was "a reference to the MUSIC Marsalis makes" rather than to the relative ordinariness among black musicians and the black community as a whole of anger against white society. In any case, though, do you mean something like "Marsalis' music is traditionally inclined in manner, i.e. in style"? I'm genuinely at a loss here.

Also, what then are you referring to by "the greater truth [that Marsalis and Crouch] express," which is also a "universal Black truth"? I thought that you meant "the greater truth they express" and the "universal Black truth" to refer to anger against white oppressors. No?

Well obviously the Marsalis movement was a way to make In The Tradition a 'classical' or canonical music. The rise of Jazz education faculties across the world has aided that.

Surely you're familiar with 'mannered' or 'mannerist' - when an artistic expression attempts to replicate the formal characteristics of a previous moment but fails to grasp its essence. So maybe 'In The Manner of" as opposed to in the tradition. Failing to grasp the essence may not be a failure to grasp the language - just a difference in time and place. I like the fact that Marsalis and co claimed the music back as a Black Classical Music even if I never really want to listen to their outputs.

With regard to universal Black and Indigenous truth, well the words Marsalis uses in the highlighted paragraphs are all fairly matter of fact to anyone that has a politicised identity. Obviously the specifics of his anti-semiticism are particular to an American or New York context.

It seems to me, from reading the Marsalis quotes, that he is conflating the White Supremacy of the US fathers, with the modern equivalent concerning Jazz and Jewish people controlling the production, distribution and economy of Black Music. And then he equates this with the 'ever increasing decline of the musics negroidery and purpose'. And he also says that because Jews were outsiders and marginalised people in Europe, they were able to come to America and exploit an even more marginalised and dehumanised peoples.

When we talk about some aspects of universal truths, this is equivalent to an Australian Indigenous reality, because essentially the most marginalised and mistreated people of English speaking Europe (convicts and low class 'adventure capitalists'), came here and stole, exploited and controlled Aboriginal people and lands. Because Aboriginal people were considered nothing more than savages and apes, even the convicts were re-invested with a degree of 'culture'.

It seems that this 'conflating' of White Supremacy and 20thC Jewish exploitation of Black communities seems to be a common denominator amongst Black Intellectuals across the board, from Politics to Culture.

Are there any Black intellectuals that write specifically about the causes and symptoms of this?

Has Tavis Smiley and Cornell West ever done a show about this?

Democracy Now?

I remember Eddie Murphy taking the piss out of Jesse Jackson!

Don't Let Me Down Hymie Town!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNz5XnvZHhk

Thanks, Freelancer -- now I understand what you meant.

[king ubu]

Not sure why my posts had to go since I was trying to express a sincere concern about this very discussion.

[Larry Kart]

Not sure why my posts had to go since I was trying to express a sincere concern about this very discussion.

I deleted them because after I'd deleted the other posts there was nothing left for your posts to refer to, or so it seemed to me. If you were saying that this whole thread, minus the name-calling, is inherently troublesome/dangerous, I don't agree -- but again, with the name-calling posts removed, I think that you're sincere concern would have seemed a bit odd, as in "What is he referring to?" If I've stepped on your toes by doing what I did, I apologize. You certainly did nothing wrong; it just seemed to me that we should remove all traces of this particular episode and try to move on.

[king ubu]

Okay, fine - and thanks.

I just had hunches of "black anti-semitism" being defended here as a valid expression of opinion - and that is indeed a thing to worry about in my book ... maybe I mis-read some posts, but then that may again be the usual "freedom of speech" gap between americans and europeans.

[fasstrack]

It's making me sick to read this.

What's making you sick?

The fact that the two guys I have read you champion on these boards as 'good guys' (Marsalis and Crouch), were still prepared to use extreme racialised language in their own 'Corporate Black Power' ambitions.

Yes. And I defended them, not the same as championing them, when unfairly maligned. This is different, and sickening. Anyway, I may have changed my views from a Wynton-hater but it really doesn't matter to me much. Both those guys were nice to me when I met them, and the only thing I have to go on is experience. But this is indefensible and anyway I don't want to get into a whole thing on it---doubt that the rest of the board does either.

So just let the troll in post 230 'put it out there', and let it hang in the air.

And the Black face of jazz, can forever be dismissed as synonymous with anti-semiticism and reverse racism, or even worse .........bad Fusion

He's not a troll. He's actually an old aquaintance, known for years outside of this BB. However the polemic, if true, stands on its own bottom and, again, is contemptable.

I don't know what makes them the 'black face of jazz' unless you're being sarcastic.

Funny thing is we musicians could give a rat's ass about any of this. Of course our voice counts nil unless someone's a star.

I still plan to read Crouch's book---scanned it already and it looks good. If that works out it's on to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Alright, I'm kidding so knock it off. Just trying to add some much-needed levity.

[fasstrack]

This is 'nice' too.

Cornel West > Quotes > Quotable Quote

“Black anti-semitism is a form of underdog resentment and envy, directed at another underdog who has made it in American society. The remarkable upward mobility of American Jews--rooted chiefly in a history and culture that places a premium on higher education and self-organization--easily lends itself to myths of Jewish unity and homogeneity that have gained currency among other groups, especially among relatively unorganized groups like black Americans. The high visibility of Jews in the upper reaches of the academy, journalism, the entertainment industry, and the professions--though less so percentage-wise in corporate America and national political office--is viewed less as a result of hard work and success fairly won and more as a matter of favoritism and nepotism among Jews. Ironically, calls for black solidarity and achievement are often modeled on myths of Jewish unity--as both groups respond to American xenophobia and racism. But in times such as these, some blacks view Jews as obstacles rather than allies in the struggle for racial justice.”

― Cornel West

I see it every day (anti-semitic stereotypes invoked as above) in uneducated blacks I deal with in my personal life. One was quite openly spilling out sentences like 'y'all help each other out, I know', and why don't you ask the Jews to help you (with some personal problems). They're not going to help no niggers'. I've heard this attitude more than I've cared to and I refuse to sugar-coat what people say.

When I was a teen there was none of this (in my life at least). Perhaps it was because I could play guitar well that I was invited to East New York to join or jam with R&B bands. I learned a lot of music from these guys and there wasn't a racist bone in anyone's body. These were poor kids, too. So in the end, like the bard Mac Davis, I believe in music. It's the only thing I've seen work to counteract all this other bullshit.

[robertoart]

Okay, fine - and thanks.

I just had hunches of "black anti-semitism" being defended here as a valid expression of opinion - and that is indeed a thing to worry about in my book ... maybe I mis-read some posts, but then that may again be the usual "freedom of speech" gap between americans and europeans.

My point would not to be defending Black anti-semitism but to respond with genuine incredulity at the failure of readers of this board to assess and respond to the racism and ignorance that is the guiding force behind the writings of messrs Lees, Sandke and Lowe, and anyone else that attaches their name to said writings. Including Larry Kart. This board seems to be a haven for their apologists and boosters. Surprising the amount of dismissive, angry and disappointed responses the tomes of Lees and Sandke got, but obviously the people who felt that way THE RIGHT WAY are to busy and alert to post here.

Read the first pages of Lees chapter Dr. de Lerma, I Presume. Read the 'oh so reasonable' little salon discussion they are having and not feel sick in your guts. It's the same feeling I get reading almost everything of Sandke's (including his various efforts at 'journal' writing). Not to mention Lowe's incessant stream of 'vanity project' writing. Maybe it really is a universal Black and Indigenous thing to recognise this 'very polite and reasonable' discourse for what it is - as vile and offensive as the Black anti-semitism that has everyone up in arms at a moments notice. And don't think that focussing on 'this particular paragraph' or 'that particular point of view' is a way to argue through the legitimacy of this shit. It's inherent in every word and every sentence they write at some level.

So don't go worrying about your hunches of Black Anti semitism being defended here. Maybe explore why you can't see the execrable reverse racism arguments of the aforementioned writers/musicians -whose whole musical identities were/are based on Black Music history- for what it truly is.

Oh but that's right...this is AMERICAN musical history. However, I'll continue to acknowledge revere and respect Jazz as part of the great tradition of Black American Music first, and then American music after that. No matter how annoying that seems to be to the White Americans (and others) who frequent this board.

Jazz is the cultural expression of the Black experience in America. It's not the cultural expression of White people's experience in America. Unless they both had the same experience. Which they so clearly did not.

And Lowe, don't ever respond to one of my posts and proclaim your 'great insights' into Racism - and years of (mostly ignored) writings on Blackness. EVER.

Edited November 26, 2013 by freelancer

[robertoart]

I see it every day (anti-semitic stereotypes invoked as above) in uneducated blacks I deal with in my personal life. One was quite openly spilling out sentences like 'y'all help each other out, I know', and why don't you ask the Jews to help you (with some personal problems). They're not going to help no niggers'. I've heard this attitude more than I've cared to and I refuse to sugar-coat what people say.

When I was a teen there was none of this (in my life at least). Perhaps it was because I could play guitar well that I was invited to East New York to join or jam with R&B bands. I learned a lot of music from these guys and there wasn't a racist bone in anyone's body. These were poor kids, too. So in the end, like the bard Mac Davis, I believe in music. It's the only thing I've seen work to counteract all this other bullshit.

Mr West was obviously putting his head and heart towards the most diplomatic thing to say here. Because it reads to me as one of the weakest pieces of writing of his I have seen. Despite it's conciliatory nature. Perhaps because he was suppressing a lot of 'stuff', it comes across as slightly 'overly' respectful.

“I cannot be an optimist but I am a prisoner of hope.”

― Cornel West

[robertoart]

He's not a troll. He's actually an old aquaintance, known for years outside of this BB. However the polemic, if true, stands on its own bottom and, again, is contemptable.

I don't know what makes them the 'black face of jazz' unless you're being sarcastic.

Funny thing is we musicians could give a rat's ass about any of this. Of course our voice counts nil unless someone's a star.

I still plan to read Crouch's book---scanned it already and it looks good. If that works out it's on to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Alright, I'm kidding so knock it off. Just trying to add some much-needed levity.

The Black face of jazz to me would be Black Americans who play Jazz. As opposed to non-Black Americans who play Jazz.

So why is it that the consistent arguments that come across on-line and in interviews from Black Jazz musicians and Black Jazz writers of nearly all aesthetic persuasions - that in Marsalis's words decry the 'ever increasing decline of the musics negroidery and purpose' - don't seem to have made it to you, in the hot seat as it were?

Is it just the voice of a vociferous few making it seem like an urgent concern for Black musicians as a whole, or maybe you're not part of their conversation?

Edited November 26, 2013 by freelancer

[king ubu]

Okay, fine - and thanks.

I just had hunches of "black anti-semitism" being defended here as a valid expression of opinion - and that is indeed a thing to worry about in my book ... maybe I mis-read some posts, but then that may again be the usual "freedom of speech" gap between americans and europeans.

So don't go worrying about your hunches of Black Anti semitism being defended here. Maybe explore why you can't see the execrable reverse racism arguments of the aforementioned writers/musicians -whose whole musical identities were/are based on Black Music history- for what it truly is.

Gimme a break, willya? I'm not willing to be accused of racism by you. If you find it in my posts, in my language, fine, go point it out - if not, shut the fuck up now and take your crusade elsewhere. I'm sure your line of reasoning isn't plain wrong, I'm sure what you're pointing out is actually taking place - but I'm not the one to attack here.

[J.A.W.]

Okay, fine - and thanks.

I just had hunches of "black anti-semitism" being defended here as a valid expression of opinion - and that is indeed a thing to worry about in my book ... maybe I mis-read some posts, but then that may again be the usual "freedom of speech" gap between americans and europeans.

So don't go worrying about your hunches of Black Anti semitism being defended here. Maybe explore why you can't see the execrable reverse racism arguments of the aforementioned writers/musicians -whose whole musical identities were/are based on Black Music history- for what it truly is.

Gimme a break, willya? I'm not willing to be accused of racism by you. If you find it in my posts, in my language, fine, go point it out - if not, shut the fuck up now and take your crusade elsewhere. I'm sure your line of reasoning isn't plain wrong, I'm sure what you're pointing out is actually taking place - but I'm not the one to attack here.

Totally agree with Flurin.

[edit]

I also think that this has become a political discussion, which doesn't belong on this board since Jim A. pulled the dedicated forum.

Edited November 26, 2013 by J.A.W.

[robertoart]

Okay, fine - and thanks.

I just had hunches of "black anti-semitism" being defended here as a valid expression of opinion - and that is indeed a thing to worry about in my book ... maybe I mis-read some posts, but then that may again be the usual "freedom of speech" gap between americans and europeans.

So don't go worrying about your hunches of Black Anti semitism being defended here. Maybe explore why you can't see the execrable reverse racism arguments of the aforementioned writers/musicians -whose whole musical identities were/are based on Black Music history- for what it truly is.

Gimme a break, willya? I'm not willing to be accused of racism by you. If you find it in my posts, in my language, fine, go point it out - if not, shut the fuck up now and take your crusade elsewhere. I'm sure your line of reasoning isn't plain wrong, I'm sure what you're pointing out is actually taking place - but I'm not the one to attack here.

So you'll speak up when it's supposedly Black Anti-semitism rearing it's head. But quietly let it all be business as usual when it's a more insidious kind.

Okay, fine - and thanks.

I just had hunches of "black anti-semitism" being defended here as a valid expression of opinion - and that is indeed a thing to worry about in my book ... maybe I mis-read some posts, but then that may again be the usual "freedom of speech" gap between americans and europeans.

So don't go worrying about your hunches of Black Anti semitism being defended here. Maybe explore why you can't see the execrable reverse racism arguments of the aforementioned writers/musicians -whose whole musical identities were/are based on Black Music history- for what it truly is.

Gimme a break, willya? I'm not willing to be accused of racism by you. If you find it in my posts, in my language, fine, go point it out - if not, shut the fuck up now and take your crusade elsewhere. I'm sure your line of reasoning isn't plain wrong, I'm sure what you're pointing out is actually taking place - but I'm not the one to attack here.

Totally agree with Flurin.

[edit]

I also think that this has become a political discussion, which doesn't belong on this board since Jim A. pulled the dedicated forum.

Yeah. The politics of Jazz.

This is a Jazz Board.

Unfortunately these issues go far beyond politics and to something much deeper.

Edited November 26, 2013 by freelancer

[Big Beat Steve]

So I'll go on record here as stating that Richard Sudhalter's "Lost Chords" IMHO is an important book in jazz literature (if only to round out the overall picture) WITHOUT taking anything away from the important (and overall definitely predominant) influence and achievements of black creatorship and originality in jazz.

There are more shades to make up a full picture than one sometimes imagines or would like to believe or make believe.

Edited November 26, 2013 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

Jazz is the cultural expression of the Black experience in America. It's not the cultural expression of White people's experience in America. Unless they both had the same experience. Which they so clearly did not.

That's fine as far as it goes, as a basic sound-bite and/or macro-starting point but the reality is that life in America, especially rural southern America has been such that although black & white experiences have not been the "same" (damn near impossible in an environment of direct and after-shock of unfettered apartheid-or-worse, they have very, very often been overlapped, and the poorer you get (and there have been all kinds of poor people in the American South), that overlapping has been more than casual, and the ongoing effects have been mutual. To claim that overlap as the entire story is dishonest, but it's just as dishonest to not accept it as part of the whole, and wholeness is what we're all after, I should think/hope/wonder.

I really, really have no - I mean zero - tolerance for the "white apologist crybaby" line, the whole "hey, it's our music TOO" lines that keep popping up from people who have probably never lived in a warm-weather climate in their life, much less belonged to a social culture that was based on living off the land in some form or fashion. Too often, that comes across as "hey, I get it, I can play it, so I can own it", and well, ok, you can own what you do in it, but the bigger "it" is not yours to own (or any one person, really, and besides, "owning" is useful only for selling, and there we go with all that again). But somewhere along the line, the reality gets more blurred than it all being just one thing coming from just one place.

"Our" music as an expression of purely racial identity, I get that. (And nobody has issues with "Latin" music, or "European" music or anything like that. Or even "African" music. But "Black American Music" just pisses the holy shit out of a huge number of people, it seems, and really, I don't get it. I mean, I get it, but I don't GET it). But it (ALL of "our" musics) forms a pretty large set of tributaries that ultimately have to end up feeding in the greater river of "Our" music as a larger cultural, and eventually universal, identity. Drying up and/or attempting to divert the various tributaries is not wise, as it will ultimately fuck up the big river (and nature will have its way eventually and put everything back like it was meant to be anyway). But trying to avoid the big river is just as foolish, because...you can't stop running water.

As far as "black anti-semitism", well, that's playing with fire, but a more on-point question - especially now - would simply be, what do we have to do to get away from THIS, and who do we have to get away from to get there?" I guarantee you that there are a lot more "we"s who want to get away from "this" than just Black "we"s, more than a few of them Jewish and/or White. Now how many of them (any/all of them) just want to get away from this so as only to become The New Boss (who really is Same As The Old Boss), I can't tell you. My gut feeling is that it's more than a few. But effective action can only result from aiming at an accurate target, and the whole "Jews" thing is like...put on some glasses before you fire that gun, son, lest you hit us all, friend and foe alike.

Basically, I'm tired of everybody telling everybody else who they are and why nobody else can be them and why yes I can be you and blahblahblah. Just be who you are, dammit, that's hard enough to figure out right there, that's a life's work right there.., never mind who is everybody else and who is not.

On the whole, people are fools. Often lovable, but even more often fools. But that's what we got to work with, so...work with it we must.

[king ubu]

Okay, fine - and thanks.

I just had hunches of "black anti-semitism" being defended here as a valid expression of opinion - and that is indeed a thing to worry about in my book ... maybe I mis-read some posts, but then that may again be the usual "freedom of speech" gap between americans and europeans.

So don't go worrying about your hunches of Black Anti semitism being defended here. Maybe explore why you can't see the execrable reverse racism arguments of the aforementioned writers/musicians -whose whole musical identities were/are based on Black Music history- for what it truly is.

Gimme a break, willya? I'm not willing to be accused of racism by you. If you find it in my posts, in my language, fine, go point it out - if not, shut the fuck up now and take your crusade elsewhere. I'm sure your line of reasoning isn't plain wrong, I'm sure what you're pointing out is actually taking place - but I'm not the one to attack here.

So you'll speak up when it's supposedly Black Anti-semitism rearing it's head. But quietly let it all be business as usual when it's a more insidious kind.

No, that's my point: I fucking don't and would appreciate if you'd stop right there and now of insinuating such things. Thank you.

I'm not the board police that has to keep freedom of speechers going into racist debates from stopping to do so, I by far don't read all that is going on (and frequently miss the "hot* discussions in the "in print" corner). Just because there's no statement of mine anywhere does not allow the conclusion that I agree.

[Big Beat Steve]

King Ubu, keep cool.

You might risk fighting a windmill battle against preconceived ideas.

There just is no point arguing if you are being accused that keeping silent means you tacitly "agree".

"... the caravan passes on", you know ...

[king ubu]

Yeah, I know ... but I still hate such moronic and gratuitous insinuations - but then they might be mannerisms, who knows ... I promise not to do no more effin' (oops) swearin' for a minute now

[robertoart]

Okay, fine - and thanks.

I just had hunches of "black anti-semitism" being defended here as a valid expression of opinion - and that is indeed a thing to worry about in my book ... maybe I mis-read some posts, but then that may again be the usual "freedom of speech" gap between americans and europeans.

So don't go worrying about your hunches of Black Anti semitism being defended here. Maybe explore why you can't see the execrable reverse racism arguments of the aforementioned writers/musicians -whose whole musical identities were/are based on Black Music history- for what it truly is.

Gimme a break, willya? I'm not willing to be accused of racism by you. If you find it in my posts, in my language, fine, go point it out - if not, shut the fuck up now and take your crusade elsewhere. I'm sure your line of reasoning isn't plain wrong, I'm sure what you're pointing out is actually taking place - but I'm not the one to attack here.

So you'll speak up when it's supposedly Black Anti-semitism rearing it's head. But quietly let it all be business as usual when it's a more insidious kind.

No, that's my point: I fucking don't and would appreciate if you'd stop right there and now of insinuating such things. Thank you.

I'm not the board police that has to keep freedom of speechers going into racist debates from stopping to do so, I by far don't read all that is going on (and frequently miss the "hot* discussions in the "in print" corner). Just because there's no statement of mine anywhere does not allow the conclusion that I agree.

Certainly I don't accuse you of racism on any level. But was simply drawing your attention to how things can be perceived if you take a position on one thing and not another. Love to read you actually respond to the reverse racism people one day when the next round of posts raise it's head.

You obviously felt the need to speak up last night anyway.

Edited November 26, 2013 by freelancer

[AllenLowe]

UBU, this guy is a provocateur, albeit a dull and unsubtle one. I fell for it once, and probably will do so again, but you're a better man than I.

As for Lost Chords - a valuable book, though problematic in many places (I do think Sudhalter makes some arguably racist statements, but it's been a long time since I read the book); as a matter of fact, one of the prime reasons I did Devlin' Tune was to address the fact that I thought Sudhalter was right for many of the wrong reasons - including his assertions (elsewhere; I think it was in the notes for a Timeless CD of white New Orleans bands) that black and white contributions to the origins of jazz were equal, and his very disingenuous statements about how some mysterious things happened at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century that also somehow led to the big bang event of jazz invention. This is like saying some mysterious things happened and then you were born. It leaves out a lot of the verifiable details.

Edited November 26, 2013 by AllenLowe

[robertoart]

UBU, this guy is a provocateur, albeit a dull and unsubtle one. I fell for it once, and probably will do so again, but you're a better man than I.

As for Lost Chords - a valuable book, though problematic in many places (I do think Sudhalter makes some arguably racist statements, but it's been a long time since I read the book); as a matter of fact, one of the prime reasons I did Devlin' Tune was to address the fact that I thought Sudhalter was right for many of the wrong reasons - including his assertions (elsewhere; I think it was in the notes for a Timeless CD of white New Orleans bands) that black and white contributions to the origins of jazz were equal, and his very disingenuous statements about how some mysterious things happened at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century that also somehow led to the big bang event of jazz invention.

Respond to jim sangrey's post why don't you. I'm no provocateur.

You can't fob him off as dull and unsubtle.

Edited November 26, 2013 by freelancer