J.A.W. Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 (edited) Well, the thread title says it all. I'm not interested in piano versions. Edited November 11, 2012 by J.A.W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 Do you prefer single CDs with a selection or "complete" editions? Well, strictly speaking, there is no complete recording, as there are numerous adaptations of opera and instrumental ensemble pieces that most performers set aside. Research on Handel's works is not as advanced as that on Bach, with the Handel Compendium ("Handbuch") completed only this year, there is a new agreement on what is authentic; we know much better now what kinds of organs and harpsichords Handel played. Siegbert Rampe was responsible for the latter, and made a CD on a typical large Hamburg harpsichord - a very powerful instrument making clear why Handel had the reputation of being such a forceful player. To me this is the most instresting new recording in the last ten years: If you want a wider selection, Michael Borgstede's 4 CD box on Brilliant Classics is a bargain - although he admits he finds some of the longer variation cycles a bit boring and cuts them short. The biggest problem with Handel's suites compared to those by Bach is that Handel notated only a sketch of his works, keeping the secrets of his personla style of embellishment to himself, where Bach notated every detail. For this reason, the embellished copy of the print that fellow composer Gottlieb Muffat made is invaluable, as it demonstrates how a contemporary of Handel would have used ornamentation etc. It was reprinted a few years ago and there is a very nice recording by Eva Maria Pollerus. The latter and Rampe are those I would recommend before all others, they are inspired and represent the current state of musicological reaserch at the same time. Borgstede is a very nice overview at an unbeatable price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted November 11, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 Thanks Mike, very informative. What do you think of Sophie Yates' interpretations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 Sophie Yates - I have them, and think they are very nice. I would prefer them to Borgstede - she has a very lively fashion, succeeds in bringing some imrovisatory spirit into the music. She's one of the players I never get tired of while listening - a bit of sameness creeps in when she plays earlier music, her Handel may be her best recording, at least of what I have heard. I just didn't mention them as they are oop, IIRC. Another I can recommend is Olivier Baumont - beware of that Erato Handel box as it has only part of his version, the rest is by Ton Koopman, who tends towards a strange mixture of subjectiveness and generalization in his playing. Listen to samples when you can find them - Händel needs lively and rather constant tempos, IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 Haven't done any comparisons since I got Scott Ross' set a few years ago, but I recall thinking then that it was very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mracz Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Try Laurence Cummings on Naxos (also very fine Louis Couperin) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted November 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) Just listened to audio samples of Sophie Yates' Händel CDs and I liked what I heard - musically that is, not so much sonically (MP3 on crappy computer speakers and all that). One of the CDs sounded as if it had too much reverb, unfortunately. Edited November 14, 2012 by J.A.W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Just checked Yates' Handel CDs - they were recorded in Fonde Abbey, Somerset, on a copy of the Ruckers harpsichord kept in the Musée Unterlinden at Colmar. Although I prefer harpsichord in more intimate chamber settings, I must admit that instrument sounds great in that room - it is not too spacious. If your hifi at home can handle recordings with room ambience properly, buy with confidence. Harpsichord almost always sounds crappy as MP3 - the transfer kills the initmate details of reverb and resonance ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted November 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Just checked Yates' Handel CDs - they were recorded in Fonde Abbey, Somerset, on a copy of the Ruckers harpsichord kept in the Musée Unterlinden at Colmar. Although I prefer harpsichord in more intimate chamber settings, I must admit that instrument sounds great in that room - it is not too spacious. If your hifi at home can handle recordings with room ambience properly, buy with confidence. Harpsichord almost always sounds crappy as MP3 - the transfer kills the initmate details of reverb and resonance ... My system can handle recordings of every kind (Mark Levinson electronics and Quad electrostatic speakers). Having read your comments I'm looking forward to getting the Yates next month. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Some Scott Ross Handel. Sounds darn good to me: More Ross playing Handel: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Having heard Richter's partial recording of the Händel suites, I'm inclined to find a harpsichord recording, too ... the Ross is impossible to get (or rather: very expensive), but the Yates is around (three single volumes, that's all there is - no 3CD set combining it all, correct?) As for Baumont, is this the one to beware of? I'm pretty confused as the tracklists for these don't seem to match with anything from the Richter recordings ... are there various series, are the "keyboard suites" different from the "harpsichord suites"? I know nothing about Händel yet, so please bear with (and enlighten) me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) Also, anyone familiar with this one? No samples around, it seems. EDIT: Found samples for Ludger Remy here: http://www.jpc.de/jp...33/hnum/7172865 Edited December 4, 2012 by king ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Tending to go for Borgstede just to have the entire series of works for starters ... and then deciding if I need more. The Yates isn't quite complete yet, right? One more volume to go, I guess? The samples sound fine though, but I admit I'm a cheap bum and I'd like to get the entire run for starters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) The mess with the work numbers is due to the fact that many performers/labels do not bother to use the numbering from the official Händel-Werke-Verzeichnis (HWV), which didn't exist in Richter's time. The suites are the same no matter if they call them "keyboard" or "harpsichord" suites That work-list contains much more, btw, than any performer ever recorded (Edgar Krapp's on LP for Eurodisc was the most complete, but never was reissued on CD), as authenticity of several pieces is doubtful. Händel as so populat that numerous bootleg prints attributed to him were printed. The two collections of suites most performers record are pieces he authorized ( I can tell you more next year after I have dug my way through the respective chapters of the new Händel-Handbuch). The Baumont recordings are very nice, and his choice of instruments is always interesting - to get them all you have to buy used copies of the two single CDs on ERATO, or the reissue king ubu pictured above, as they pefererred Ton Koopman's recording in the box set. The Ludger Rémy is nice, but his Händel sounds too much like Bach to me. The best single disc selection coming closest to Händels sound is Siegbert Rampe's, and I strongly recommend to listen to Pollerus' recording of Muffat's ornamented version (see my post # 2). Another very interesting recording is Christopher Hogwood's double disc on clavichord: Edited December 4, 2012 by mikeweil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted December 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Sophie Yates recorded 8 Suites from 1720 (5 on her Vol.2 and 3 on Vol.3), 8 Suites from 1733 (6 on Vol.1, 2 on Vol.3) and a prelude from 1733 (on Vol.3). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) Many thanks, Mike (and Hans - those amazon tracklists keep confusing me, too stupid to count!) So I guess I'll rather go for Rampe and Pollerus, maybe add the Baumont ... and then see if I still want any of the more expensive Yates discs. Re: Baumont - Mike, you call the above one a box set ... it's two discs only, best tracklist I found is here: http://www.amazon.de...ks_all_1#disc_1 That's not complete as far as Händel's suites go, I think (?) ... but I assume it's all that Baumont has recorded? If I look at this listing here: http://www.klassika....tung.html#Suite I see there are eight from 1720 but nine from 1733 - so the three Yates discs still miss one Suite? But then the count most often seen is twice eight ... I'm still confused! Edited December 4, 2012 by king ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted December 4, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) If I look at this listing here: http://www.klassika....tung.html#Suite I see there are eight from 1720 but nine from 1733 - so the three Yates discs still miss one Suite? But then the count most often seen is twice eight ... I'm still confused! The prelude I mentioned in my Yates listing above is listed on Vol.3 as "Preludio from Suite No.9 in G major" (1733). Edited December 4, 2012 by J.A.W. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Okay, so we're getting there ... the klassika.info site on Händel lists HWV 442 as "Prélude et Chaconne avec LXII Variations". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 (edited) Händel wrote several Chaconnes with variations, some were labelled "suites" and printed in such collections, some received their titles from later copyists or editors of manuscripts. Borgstede finds some of them boring and shortens them .... the problem was that Händel saw himself more as a keyboard improvisor and didn't bother to print stuff - contrary to Bach who notated every detail Händel wrote down only a skeleton that he filled out - he didn't want to share his tricks. That's why Muffat's ornamented version is so important. Those who like Händel will like Muffat's Suites just as well: Mitzi Meyerson's recordings is excellent, and Händelians will find out that he quoted or borrowed from every other piece in the collection .... And yes, the two discs are all Baumont recorded. Edited December 5, 2012 by mikeweil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted December 4, 2012 Report Share Posted December 4, 2012 Thanks again, Mike! I think I'm slowly gaining an understanding ... and Meyerson would then be another good choice, I'm sure. But I'll go with the two you recommend most early in this thread first, that decision has been made! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 (edited) If you really buy Siegbert Rampe's CD, please let me know what you think - IMHO it's the only Händel harpsichord CD that really gives an impression of what his playing powers really might have been. It all depends on what chances the performer takes to embellish the written text ... Rampe had just been involved in editing the Händel Handbuch on the instrumental works and researched a lot of new findings on Händels instruments and performance practice, when he recorded that disc - so far the only using a large harpsichord with 16" register. Händel had two of those, one brought from Hamburg and another custom made in England. The Gottlieb Muffat suites are rather underrated - in fact they are up to par with Bach's Clavier-Übung I, and English and French suites, and silightly superior to Händel's two printed books, and Kuhnau's or Mattheson's pieces. IMHO Muffat's book is the only harpsichord collection on the same level as Bach's Clavier-Übung I - but he was overlooked as he published nothing else for harpsichord (only an organ book) due to his employment at the Viennese court. I wrote some about him here. Edited December 5, 2012 by mikeweil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Another great German harpsichord composer on a level with Händel is Christoph Graupner - Canadian Geneviève Soly made a series of excellent recordings of them: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted December 5, 2012 Report Share Posted December 5, 2012 Rampe and Pollerus are on their way, will post some impressions once I've heard the discs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted December 6, 2012 Report Share Posted December 6, 2012 What about this one by Isolde Ahlgrimm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted December 7, 2012 Report Share Posted December 7, 2012 (edited) Ahlgrimm was a pioneer of harpsichord playing in the middle of the 20th century, influenced a lot of people, but died more or less in obscurity - read here. I have this edition: Sounds better than I remembered. A little dated (modern concert pitch and tuning, and not a historical instrument, as knowledge on harpsichord building was still limited at the time of the recording), but worth a listen when you can find a cheap copy. Her playing is very good and personal. Edited December 7, 2012 by mikeweil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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