What's next on your audio wish list?

[jazzbo]

Ouch! Shit just got real on another site where some cat claimed he was looking to "upgrade" from his current marginal system to a tube system. The response went as followed:

"Let's be clear on this right off the bat: If you go from solid state amplification to tube amplification, then you are downgrading! Tubes are technically inferior to solid state in pretty much every way and every measurement. Also, with tube amps, it is much more important to worry about amp output impedance and speaker input impedance. In other words, a well designed and robust SS amp will drive a wider range of speakers than a similar tube amp will.

Now that I have that out of the way.....

Do you have any inclination for the DIY approach on a tube amp? IF you think you might want to build your own, then check out the Dynaco Clones from Bob Latino. Absolutely top-notch components, easy to follow instructions, and awesome support from Bob himself. I built an ST70 and love it! The bottom line is that tubes can be fun and can sound good, but you must be more mindful of the limitations of tube amps."

And the somewhat subjective argument still rages on all these decades later.

There is always 'some cat' on an audio board saying tubes are old-fashoned and inferior. Yes you do have to apply some care in matching components with tube amps, but the sonic rewards are worth it. (And you should apply care in matching components with solid state systems as well). I still haven't heard a solid state amp that I can afford that rivals the sound of the Decware amps I own, whether transistor or chip. A technically inferior product? Not if it makes music sound better, that technically is what one is after. "Better" is always subjective, and there's always room for several different ways to "skin a cat."

I haven't been able to build the type of amp that I want, so I went into vintage tube gear at first then found Decware . . . I grew up with an ST70, my Dad's. My Dad said that the Decware amp I have in his system now (my "C" amp) sounds so much better than anything he ever had before in making music sound real and flowing, and I agree.

Edited February 25, 2014 by jazzbo

[Clunky]

Having added a DAC to my CD player quite recently and then had to replace a bent Dynavector stylus I'm not in the mood buy any more audio kit for some considerable time. Having said that moving from DV 20x to an XX2 Mk II made a huge difference to vinyl playback.

[Shawn]

I'd like to get a decent surround system for movies and albums with surround mixes.

[Scott Dolan]

The truth of the matter is, it really is true of the CSP2+ at least that I have three examples of.

Actually, that's not true at all. If you buy a $1,300 pre-amp that makes your DAC sound twice as good, and your amp a "lot" better, then both of those components were suffering from very serious issues (in other words, it's impossible). And that was my point. Unless you were trying to power 4 ohm speakers with a transistor radio, your amp might sound better, but not a lot. That's not the way it works once you pass a certain threshold in the audio world. And claiming to make a DAC sound twice as good is beyond absurd.

As for tubes vs. SS, yet another subjective battle that rages on. Just like CD vs. LP. Technically, SS is superior as far as the technology is concerned, but as I said in response to the post I quoted, "Many folks actually prefer the harmonic distortion inherent in vacuum tubes. So considering it an upgrade or downgrade is actually pretty subjective, IMO."

Edited February 25, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[Scott Dolan]

Having added a DAC to my CD player quite recently and then had to replace a bent Dynavector stylus I'm not in the mood buy any more audio kit for some considerable time. Having said that moving from DV 20x to an XX2 Mk II made a huge difference to vinyl playback.

What DAC did you go with?

I'd like to get a decent surround system for movies and albums with surround mixes.

I've got a Dolby Digital 5.1 Harman Kardon I'll sell you for a good price.

[jazzbo]

The truth of the matter is, it really is true of the CSP2+ at least that I have three examples of.

Actually, that's not true at all. If you buy a $1,300 pre-amp that makes your DAC sound twice as good, and your amp a "lot" better, then both of those components were suffering from very serious issues (in other words, it's impossible). And that was my point. Unless you were trying to power 4 ohm speakers with a transistor radio, your amp might sound better, but not a lot. That's not the way it works once you pass a certain threshold in the audio world. And claiming to make a DAC sound twice as good is beyond absurd.

As for tubes vs. SS, yet another subjective battle that rages on. Just like CD vs. LP. Technically, SS is superior as far as the technology is concerned, but as I said in response to the post I quoted, "Many folks actually prefer the harmonic distortion inherent in vacuum tubes. So considering it an upgrade or downgrade is actually pretty subjective, IMO."

It's not that simple Scott, as much as I wish it were. I'm not saying "twice as good" is accurate, but there are a lot of ways to improve sound that has nothing to do with a component being fed by a preamp "suffering some issue." Unless a "thin" sound, or a "dull" sound, etc. are "issues a component suffers."

You haven't heard these in action and so . . . . I don't personally think in this instance you can dismiss the matter so glibly and finally.

I totally agree with you regarding tube and solid state. . . . my point was "sounding better" is subjective, and if something sounds better it can be argued it can't be "technically inferior" if the goal is to reproduce music well.

Not going to go on and on and argue with you but your problem with the CSP3 statement I don't at all feel is as tenable as you think. I own three of the earlier versions of this model and feel they do make significant improvements to the sound of components they are connected to, and that doesn't mean that the components had "issues" in the way you are implying. From your narrowed viewpoint that cabling, power treatment, natural compression, etc. don't make a difference, it may seem that means that the components are flawed in some ways, but from my experinece that these things can improve sound then the statement has merit even if the "amount" (twice) is a very subjective quantity.

There's a divide between what you think and what I have experienced, and that influences how the statement is taken. Right here is the divide: you say "If you buy a $1,300 pre-amp that makes your DAC sound twice as good, and your amp a "lot" better, then both of those components were suffering from very serious issues (in other words, it's impossible)." That is not at all true in my experience. It sounds incorrect to me to view components and their sound that way. Ne're the twain shall meet imo Hope you get to experience the CSP3 and hope you use it between two components and hear for yourself.

Edited February 25, 2014 by jazzbo

[jazzbo]

Here's some info Steve has posted about "riding the gain" which is a large part of the way the CSP3 can be perceived to "improve" the sound of components it is connected to:

RIDING THE GAIN

A term we came up with because of the active nature of the adjustment process that can take place when you use a ZSTAGE in conjunction with an preamp OR amplifier fitted with a gain control.

INPUT OUTPUT

Riding the gain happens when you have two controls. One at the source and one at the amp or preamp. Think of it like water pressure. You have a pipe with a valve at the input end and another valve at the output end. The valves represent the gain controls and the pipe represents the signal path between the two gain gain controls.

By turning up the input valve and turning the output valve down we create pressure inside the pipe. By turning down (closing) the input valve and turning up (opening) the output valve we reduce pressure inside the pipe. So if you took a garden hose and turned on the faucet you would have lots of water coming out the end, but it wouldn’t be able to spray anything until you put a nozzle on the end. The nozzle acts like a valve to restrict the output causing the pressure in the hose to increase. PRESSURE in this metaphor is the same thing as DYNAMICS in your stereo system.

FREQUENCY BALANCE

By having a gain control at the source and a second one at the amp (or preamp) it is possible to manipulate the dynamics of your music and it’s overall frequency balance. For example, if the music sounds thin you can increase the “pressure” by turning down the gain control on the amplifier (or preamp) and then raising the gain control at the source. This will add noticeable weight to the music and mellow out the top end. On the other side, if the music is sounding boomy or thick, you can do the opposite - turn up the gain on the amp and reduce the gain at the source. The boominess will go away.

from: http://www.decware.com/newsite/ZSTAGEMANUAL.pdf

[Scott Dolan]

Then your experience is flawed, because I've head everything from transistor radios to five figure rigs. I've also made incremental steps up the ladder, and have been there as friends did it at a much higher dollar level. Unless your equipment had a serious issue, or unless you're going from a $1000 rig to a $10,000 rig, the improvements will be incremental. Period.

You can experience anything you'd like to with Decware. But at the end of the day, just like me with Velodyne for example, you are not an impartial source. Not even close. I'm not an impartial source when it comes to Apple, either. These are truths one just has to accept, or else they turn blue in the face fighting that fact.

Now, I just spent four times the money to upgrade my mains. And although I went from mid-level big box store Polks to award-winning, world renown Dynaudio, at the end of the day the improvement is still only incremental. And I guarantee that Dynaudio is just as superior to Polk Audio as the Decware pre is to my HeadRoom Micro, if not a little more.

I use reality and (shared) experience to inform my view. I got past homerism a long time ago.

Hell, I'm even the one defending tubes in that discussion. So pardon me if I don't choose to take the opposite side here.

BTW, here is the link to that conversation if you're interested to see what all was said.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/amps-pre-pros-receivers/89630-matching-tube-amp-speakers-w-rega-rp3.html

Edited February 25, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[jazzbo]

I don't want to read any of that discussion.

I'm not in disagreement with you about anything other than you have no idea what "riding the gain" is and no experience with it and you have a closed mind about it and so many things audio that your statements and judgments just are not ones I can accept as you would like me to.

I am not at all in agreement with the amount of improvement that Steve says these products bring, but there is improvement, and it's not because the components used in tandem are deficient, it's an improvement of the sound IF that is the sound you are seeking, and allowing you to find that sound far more easily. I agree, incremental, but a significant improvement. I refuse to accept the narrow view of things that you do. Which is fine. I hope you one day get to hear the CSP3 in between the DAC you have and the amp you have. Really I do. I think you'll be very happy at the improvement it brings.

Edited February 25, 2014 by jazzbo

[Scott Dolan]

Right, ok.

We're obviously talking past each other then. I'm not disagreeing that there would be a difference. If I didn't think there would be, I wouldn't be interested in adding it to my rig.

I won't be running it through my amp, though. It will be used strictly as my headphone amp. I'll run the signal through my DAC directly into it.

[jazzbo]

Then my point is you will have no reference point with which to evaluate Steve's statement except your own bias that it's "impossible" becuase of your ideas about audio. You really should do it, you can do BOTH, run the DAC into it, and then into the amp, listen to the headphones. If there's a chance of improving the sound why not? Why spend so much money on something that is more than a headphone amp and limit its use?

[Scott Dolan]

Oh, and I never said anything against gain. Without it there'd be no real reason I would want to replace my HeadRoom amp with it.

So, I'm a bit confused where you came up with that part.

Then my point is you will have no reference point with which to evaluate Steve's statement except your own bias that it's "impossible" becuase of your ideas about audio. You really should do it, you can do BOTH, run the DAC into it, and then into the amp, listen to the headphones. If there's a chance of improving the sound why not? Why spend so much money on something that is more than a headphone amp and limit its use?

Because I just bought a $600 pre-amp that I'm perfectly happy with. I do not want the tube sound on my main system. It's crystal clear and aggressive, which is what I was going for. I'm just look for it on my headphones.

I'll build a tube rig as a hobby later on, but that will be for a dedicated listening room.

[Scott Dolan]

Now wait. When you say to run it into the amp, are you talking about the headphone amp?

I could do that. Seems a bit redundant, though.

Can't do it with my main amp, though.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[Clunky]

Having added a DAC to my CD player quite recently and then had to replace a bent Dynavector stylus I'm not in the mood buy any more audio kit for some considerable time. Having said that moving from DV 20x to an XX2 Mk II made a huge difference to vinyl playback.

What DAC did you go with?

I'd like to get a decent surround system for movies and albums with surround mixes.

I've got a Dolby Digital 5.1 Harman Kardon I'll sell you for a good price.

I went for a Canadian manufactured Moon 300 D, it was heavily discounted as newer model had been released.

[jazzbo]

Now wait. When you say to run it into the amp, are you talking about the headphone amp?

I could do that. Seems a bit redundant, though.

Can't do it with my main amp, though.

Yes you could. Doesn't matter. Use it as you will, it's a really good product.

I know you know about gain but you haven't experienced "riding the gain" is my guess. Anyway, I'm going to go back to listening.

[Scott Dolan]

Drop the snobbery. You have a great system, and so do I.

As far as running it through my main amp, the only option would be splitters. It's a five channel amp with dedicated inputs.

[jazzbo]

Drop the empty accusations. I know we both have systems we like, which is what counts. You have a preconcieved idea of what "tube" sound is. Tube sound is all over the map like solid state sound is. And riding the gain is an eductional and entertaining process you haven't experienced, but are making judgments about.

Oh well. I'm back to listening, at the moment to some pretty raunchy recorded bootleg stuff that I've played around with and sounds better, mainly by riding the gain.

Edited February 25, 2014 by jazzbo

[Scott Dolan]

Again with the snottery. No, we both have great systems, whether you want to admit it or not. I know the good from the mediocre. I've even owned both (as well as the really bad...).

What you don't seem to understand, or accept, whatever the case, is that I AM familiar with tubes. I've never personally owned a tube rig, but had two friends (well, ok one was only a neighbor, I guess) that did. And I used to sit around with them and listen to their rigs quite a bit. I love the tube sound, which is why I was busy defending it elsewhere.

And once again, I have made NO judgements about gain. For christs sake.

Now then, back to what we were really talking about.

I'm not seeing a way I can run both pre-amps through the same amp. If you know of a formula for doing so, I'm all ears. But, the trip up to the whole affair is that I do not want to run my DAC directly through the Decware pre, unless I'm using it strictly for headphones. The initial plan (and keep in mind I'm not getting the Dec until Christmas anyway, so it's not exactly a burning issue) was to continue to run my DAC through the Emotiva pre as I already do, and then run that out to the Dec. I couldn't loop the Dec back to the Emo pre because I can't run two inputs at one time. And if I run the DAC straight to the Dec and run that back into the Emo pre (through the CD input, for example), I'm still 100% dedicated to using that loop as my two channel music loop. Which, OK that might not be the worst thing in the world, but I still want the cleanliness of the SS sound. So I'm not seeing a way to get the best of both worlds here. Admittedly, I may be missing a step. But right now I'm not seeing it.

If you have an idea, let me hear it.

I may actually decide to let the two channel system ride through the Dec, but due to my shelf mount power center, and copious amount of zip ties for cord control, switching shit out tends to be an incredibly tedious process.

Either way, enjoy the boots. I'm currently spinning some Claremont Trio which was recorded digitally at 24 bits and sounds crystal clear and smooth as hell just riding straight through my system.

Edited February 25, 2014 by Scott Dolan

[Scott Dolan]

Quick story for you, Lon.

I don't know if you play golf or not, but I'm really into it.

Well, these days every club is made of some kind of metal. Right? It's the newest and the baddest! Kinda reminds me of the argument between those who prefer vacuum tubes vs. those who prefer solid state. And there is a definitive parallel.

Metal clubs are lighter, and provide far more power.

Wood clubs are heavier, and while you can't hit as far with them, they do tend to be more accurate due to what is called the "gear effect".

Metal clubs are ugly for the most part.

Wood clubs are hand made and usually quite beautiful.

Metal clubs go *tink*

Wood clubs go *THWACK*!

At the end of the day, metal clubs are ultimately "better", if you judge "better" by distance. But wood clubs are simply pieces of art from a time gone by. Nobody "oohs and ahhs" when you pull the latest metal clinker out of your bag. But everyone says, "wow, what is THAT?!" when you pull out a wood club.

Same thing goes when it comes down to tubes vs transistors.

Transistors have it all when it comes technology.

Tubes chug along for the enthusiast.

Transistor amps are ugly.

Tube amps wow the crowd. And many are still hand made.

Transistor amps are more accurate.

Tube amps sing a sweeter song that the human ear longs to hear.

And in case you're wondering, I play golf with all wood clubs...

[jazzbo]

No, I have no interest in golf at all.

You say you have knowledge of tubes but it doesn't seem to me you've heard the type of amp a Decware amp is. A modern tube amp tht doesn't really sound like any classic amp.

You could run a source into the CSP3 and then into your amp, right? Even temporarily?

I think you're analogy is not right about tubes and transistors. Nothing is that cut and dried in audio, sorry. I've heard sweet solid state amps and ugly edgy tube amps. And vice versa. Nothing is as easy peezy cut and dried as you always make things out to be. But arguing my point would just get more of the same spin from you.

I'm done with this discussion.

Edited February 25, 2014 by jazzbo

[Scott Dolan]

Okey dokey.

[Scott Dolan]

Suggestion: put me on ignore as you stated you were going to a couple of weeks ago.

This will be our final communication.

[jazzbo]

Oh I did, but I reversed it because I hate limiting myself.

I'm sorry you become so defensive and combative, me too, and sorry that I hung on like a terrier on a trouse leg and invoked those behaviors. What I was trying several times to point out is that unless you experiment with "riding the gain" in audio and especially with the CSP2, CSP2+ CSP3 or ZStage, you really can't properly evaluate that statement Steve has made and see that even though it is an exaggeration (I agree) it has truths within it. I hope one day that your narrow, incomprehensive ideas about audio become widened. If not, whatever. I'm fine never conversing again.

Edited February 26, 2014 by jazzbo

[Stefan Wood]

Whew!

[Chuck Nessa]

How can I rejuvenate the green magic markers that have dried out? Do I really need to buy new ones?