David Ayers Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Just to help me with something I am trying to think about, can anyone think of examples of two bop lead instruments soloing simultaneously? By which I mean, we are used to simultaneous soloing over simple structures, as in early jazz, and we are used to simultaneous soloing over modes, chords, or over no set harmony, as in free jazz, but are there examples of joint soloing over highly complex chorus structures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillF Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 I seem to remember Ted Curson and Eric Dolphy doing that on this one: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 I may be mis-remembering the tune but Oliver Nelson's "Alto-itis" is coming to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 The beginning and end of this track: Also, many Konitz-Marsh recordings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kh1958 Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 I saw a concert by Erroll Parker once, leading a ten piece group. All of the solos for the entire concert were dual--two players simultaneously soloing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Countless examples in Brubeck/Desmond, the whole improvised counterpoint thing that was one of their calling cards as they came to fame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted November 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) Looking into these slowly. The Pepper-Marsh track is a 20s song and the joint improv is a bit of probably cod period mummery - so that one doesn't count! Edited November 17, 2014 by David Ayers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 What is "cod period mummery"? ​If it means that you think Marsh and Pepper are just horsing around here in some neo-old fashioned manner, I couldn't disagree more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted November 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 It is an allusion to NO, in style, and the chords are 20s chords not a bop progression - that's what I mean. I think. These examples will take some working out, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster_Ties Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 (edited) Don't have time to dig into specific examples from YouTube, but didn't various Dave Holland groups often have two soloists going at the same time? (Thinking of Kenny Wheeler and Steve Coleman together -- in Holland's group -- in particular.) Or Greg Osby and Gary Thomas on Gary's 1998 album "Pariah's Pariah"? Neither were totally 'free' contexts, though neither conservative either. Edited November 17, 2014 by Rooster_Ties Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted November 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 It is whether people are doing it over complex changes that interests me. Weren't Holland groups likely to be doing modal stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Magnificent Goldberg Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 It seems to me that there are quite a few examples between John Lewis and Milt Jackson among the MJQ's recordings. So often, one slides in under the other and, for a minute or two, there's no determining who's got the lead there. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 It is whether people are doing it over complex changes that interests me. Weren't Holland groups likely to be doing modal stuff? I'd say so, or Braxtonian stop-time things. Or free-meter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted November 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Keep the examples coming folks. It will take me some time before I can work it all out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted November 17, 2014 Author Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 PS if re. Marsh/Konitz, Brubeck/Desmond and MJQ anyone can spot me specific examples I'd be very appreciative. I don't have time for a trawl... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 Lee and Warne: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQMSPEi6WPc&spfreload=10 From about 1:28 on, but listen to the whole thing — my gosh! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VdR9KNfurQ&spfreload=10 From about 4:10 on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay33m_WL0x4&spfreload=10 Off and on throughout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDaHz1f3L-4&spfreload=10 From about 6:33 on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLiqNnbyqIw&spfreload=10 Art Pepper, Warne Marsh, Ted Brown, from about 2:37 on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ2vCjgIR60&spfreload=10 Warne and Ted Brown from about 3:56 on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 17, 2014 Report Share Posted November 17, 2014 If good taste and/or real-time simultaneity are not deal-breakers, here ya' go (once the alto solo is over)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 If good taste and/or real-time simultaneity are not deal-breakers, here ya' go (once the alto solo is over)! Let's hear it for arranger Mike Abene. Alto solo by Lanny Morgan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 If good taste and/or real-time simultaneity are not deal-breakers, here ya' go (once the alto solo is over)! Let's hear it for arranger Mike Abene. Alto solo by Lanny Morgan. Truth be told, that's a very good album by a very good band (as I know you know), anachronistic though it was becoming, claustrophobic as it might have been feeling from a lot of different perspectives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted November 18, 2014 Report Share Posted November 18, 2014 If good taste and/or real-time simultaneity are not deal-breakers, here ya' go (once the alto solo is over)! Let's hear it for arranger Mike Abene. Alto solo by Lanny Morgan. Truth be told, that's a very good album by a very good band (as I know you know), anachronistic though it was becoming, claustrophobic as it might have been feeling from a lot of different perspectives. It was a lucky day for me when I found a used copy of that one. Got to know Abene a bit when he was Chris Connor's accompanist and then when writing the notes for a fine album by singer Anita Gravine, "Welcome to My Dream," for which he wrote some remarkable big band arrangements -- in the Gil Evans class but all Abene. Quite a guy. http://www.amazon.com/Welcome-My-Dream-Anita-Gravine/dp/B000005HJN/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1416284736&sr=1-2&keywords=Anita+gravine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Thanks again for these. Still pondering and dipping slowly. Basically I am interested in attempts to equalise voices and get away from soloist + comp model, but where the complexity of bop is retained. It makes sense that it is the cool/classicist musicians who would go in this direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Larry's selections are so great the thread should be pinned LK with WM on Atlantic I have on the Mosaic - I had actually never seen (or never noticed) the incredibly charming original cover! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted December 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2014 Incidentally, when I called up the live footage of Konitz/Marsh I got the following text: "Warning: These stunts were performed by trained professionals in a controlled environment. Do not attempt to re-create any activity performed in this video." Turned out to be an ad, but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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