New Country Music History

[AllenLowe]

I am just starting to assemble a history of country music, probably 1900-1950 or 1960; I am thinking it will be 15-18 CDs which I would like to issue 3 at a time; I've lost the label that I used to work with, and am looking for a Euro label that wants to issue this. Any ideas, let me know either here or at allenlowe5@gmail.com

my hope is to do the sets with the notes either as small 30 page booklets or as online links (probably will go with booklets). Also, as real cds, not CDRs, and to pay for each 3 CD set (to meet costs I only have to sell, I think, about 50 of each set, and my mailing list is pretty solid) and then do the next.

My definition of country music will be broader and more complex than most, I believe, and will contain African American contributions, though with an emphasis on the way in which white performers have built from a complex Southern cultural heritage.

Also, there had been some queries about a music set to accompany my rock and roll history. This will likely encompass that as well.

I am willing to enter into some kind of partnership with a Euro label or individual, so let me know if you are interested.

Edited November 24, 2014 by AllenLowe

[mikelz777]

I'm definitely interested. If you're keeping a mailing list for it, put me on it or I'll just keep my eye out here if you announce them for sale.

[mikeweil]

Allan, try Bear Family - they do a lot of country music and are great at doing box sets on Mosaic's level in that genre.

http://www.bear-family.de/

[AllenLowe]

this is one they won't touch because they don't do public domain projects. And Mikelz777 I will put you on the list.

[paul secor]

Allan, try Bear Family - they do a lot of country music and are great at doing box sets on Mosaic's level in that genre.

http://www.bear-family.de/

this is one they won't touch because they don't do public domain projects. And Mikelz777 I will put you on the list.

Hats off to Bear Family.

[AllenLowe]

well, hats on to the little indie labels who have been reissuing this music for 50 years and creating the audience that allows Bear Family to exist.

[jlhoots]

well, hats on to the little indie labels who have been reissuing this music for 50 years and creating the audience that allows Bear Family to exist.

Maybe Old Hat Records - or would this be too big for them??

[paul secor]

Guess I touched a nerve.

[Chuck Nessa]

CRAP! I thought we were starting a new country.

[JSngry]

Well, let's do that, then.

[David Ayers]

How did the last one go?

And I'm not getting this idea that PD shouldn't be made available. Paul - can you explain your theory?

[AllenLowe]

the blues thing I have only issued as CDR; also have a book with it.

It has paid for itself.

No exposed nerves here; I just think that if this were left up to the majors we would know virtually nothing about our musical history. And it is not as though Sony/BMG or Bear Family are paying the Ma Rainey and Charley Patton estates.

and, as I said, it is the little reissue labels - the OJLs, collectors classics, Arhoolie. Yazoo, et al, who have kept the market alive. There is no doubt of that.

Edited November 25, 2014 by AllenLowe

[Big Beat Steve]

How did the last one go?

And I'm not getting this idea that PD shouldn't be made available. Paul - can you explain your theory?

To put it in a somewhat simplified manner:

Bear Family reissue records of labels that they have bought the rights to lock stock and barrel - regardless of the European copyright cutoff date of 50+ years (which CONTINUES to apply to pre-1962 records here because the cutoff dates do not shift retroactively even after the new 70+ year cutoff date to protect Cliff, the Beatles etc. became applicable in 2012).

Noble though Bear Family's attitude may be (not mentioning the fact that this has been their policy since way back when Public Domain was no topic yet so it rather seems to be company policy, not some specific anti-P.D. policy), it is a two-sided affair to collectors and buyers: Sometimes they tend to milk the cow until it's bone dry by reissuing any dross that there ever was (you CAN overdo reissuing each and every note when you pack in ANYTHING that was churned out by Nashville on a given artist or label). Scraping the barrel anyone? And sometimes you have to stretch your packaging immensely in order to keep your marketing gag running, e.g. in the "Gonna Shake Thist Shack" series allegedly compiled to market the uptempo, rather more rocking side of 50s country artists you unfortunately sometimes get CDs where 3 or 4 of the tracks might actually fall into that bracket whereas the rest (i.e. the majority!) is either country tearjerkers of the more unbearable sort (that has NOT stood the test of the decades with most of today's collectors) or syrupy teen nonsense where those country artists have tried (and failed) to grab a slice of the late 50s teen market. Lame stuff and nothing to shake a shack. The plight of having (or wanting) to market everything that you hold the rights to, though the packaging invariably is excellent.

With all due respect and admiration for most of Bear Family's products (discounting the above letdowns that ARE out there), I therefore agree all the way with Allen's statement above:

"I just think that if this were left up to the majors we would know virtually nothing about our musical history. And it is not as though Sony/BMG or Bear Family are paying the Ma Rainey and Charley Patton estates.

and, as I said, it is the little reissue labels - the OJLs, collectors classics, Arhoolie. Yazoo, et al, who have kept the market alive. There is no doubt of that."

BTW, referring to the above hits at royalties to the Rainey/Patton estates, and as for obtaining the rights to the labels they reissue, I do wonder a little if BF have actually BOUGHT the rights to the recordings by Clff Bruner on the AYO label that they processed in their Cliff Bruner box. AYO is pretty obscure anyway, and if there had been rights to buy we would have seen other compilations of the AYO label recordings (gotta market what you paid for, don'tcha?). But have we?

Allen, I cannot offer any concrete pointer towards European PD labels unfortunately, but please do keep me posted on the progress of that project too. I might even be able to round up one or two other (diehard country/rockabilly) collectors who might be interested too.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Big Beat Steve

[Neal Pomea]

Not Euro but the Tompkins Square label is doing a lot with old music. Maybe worth a look.

[AllenLowe]

yeah, I have queried them but they seem to ignore me.

My biggest problem is defining the parameters of country music; I am going to define it and then put in a few unusual things (early Moten band, the Missourians, some early southern Black quartets, early country gospel black and white; Al Bernard, some early 1900s minstrel); I think for reasons of sanity I may try to keep it to 12 cds, but I don't know yet. Subrosa was interested, and I like them, but no go right now. Biggest problem is how much of it sounds alike at some point, with '20s string bands.

Have had a tough last 6 months keeping things going, running out of steam a bit, but I want to get this done, do about 4 more recording projects of my own, and then nap for a while.

Edited November 25, 2014 by AllenLowe

[jlhoots]

http://www.oldhatrecords.com/

They've put out some nice compilations.

[Big Beat Steve]

My biggest problem is defining the parameters of country music; I am going to define it and then put in a few unusual things (early Moten band, the Missourians, some early southern Black quartets, early country gospel black and white; Al Bernard, some early 1900s minstrel); I think for reasons of sanity I may try to keep it to 12 cds, but I don't know yet. Subrosa was interested, and I like them, but no go right now. Biggest problem is how much of it sounds alike at some point, with '20s string bands.

Trying to understand ... you mean 20s bands like those you named might be lumped in too rapidly with 20s (Country) string bands? Or trying not to include too many 20s string bands as they all sound alike? Personally I find a lot of those early vocalists with sparse insturmentation to sound a bit alike when taken in CD doses - many of them were (and still are) meant to be listened to in pairs of 78s A- and B-sides at a time only - the way they were listened to back then. Whereas 20s string bands to me for the most part just is good-time music that can sometimes be taken in larger doses (though I admit I have a hard time listening to the full box set of Charlie Poole's North Carolina Ramblers in one go too )

As for where to draw the line ... I can understand some may frown at the inclusion of Bennie Moten or the Missourians, though no doubt it can only be enlightening if Country music fans (who don't happen to be into early jazz too) get a chance to listen to the ORIGINAL of Moten's "South" and THEN compare it to Spade Cooley's or other (Country) versions.

[Neal Pomea]

You could mix in some Cajun. If you have or could find some of Joseph and Cleoma Falcon's stuff on Decca it would be a great service. They dipped into the pop music of the day, as did Leo Soileau, and they have not been fully documented on the compilations.

[AllenLowe]

1) I think bands like Moten's are very country - in sound, expression, rhythm. So I want to count them as such. Especially given the ties of ragtime to the South. One characteristic of this kind of of country playing is what I call passive sophistication; too laid back to be self conscious of its own musicality.

2) I think a lot of the early string bands just sound alilke - less so the ones with heavy black influence -

3) I regard Cajun, yes, as a form of country music.

Edited November 25, 2014 by AllenLowe

[paul secor]

How did the last one go?

And I'm not getting this idea that PD shouldn't be made available. Paul - can you explain your theory?

I have nothing against PD labels that actually do something. Labels like Yazoo, Blues Images, Frog, Hep, Jazz Oracle, and others have tended to work from original sources (usually 78s) and have attempted to present older music in the best sound as they could. Labels like OJL and Collectors Classics presented older recordings at a time when the music was unavailable but much of what they released has been made superfluous by better sounding reissues from some of the labels I mentioned above.

The problem I have is with many of the current PD labels who don't work from 78s or acetates or any original sources and just reissue material from LPs or CDs that other companies have already done. To my mind, that's not making material available to the public. It's taking material that's already been available and repackaging it to make either a buck or to gain some fame. Some might call that parasitic.

And I do tip my hat to companies like Bear Family and Ace who have contracted with the companies who recorded the music and reissued it in good sound and with style.

Yazoo is basically not doing any new issues because the European PD labels have done no work of their own, copped Yazoo's (and other label's) issues and put it out basically at the cost of producing a physical CD.

And - Has Bear Family issued any recordings done by Charley Patton or Ma Rainey?

[AllenLowe]

just about everything has been reissued, I have a feeling, though what we could use is a real inventory from the majors so we know what little treasures they have and what's a master or a test pressing or whatever. It's a national scandal (that few people know or care about) that so much important music in first generation sound will likely never be inventoried or released.

I do a lot of my own work, but my thing is really to take all that's out there and organize it intelligently or originally; a guy like Rich Nevins (Yazoo) is a fine transfer engineer but also something of an idiot. It's a harsh thing to say, but he has no real historic sense (try reading his liner notes) and he is arrogant to boot; a dangerous combination.

There are ways to do this kind of reissuing, but it takes something of a new business model. There's still a collectors world and some lables out there with guys like Mike McGonigal and Ian Nagosky and a few labels doing nice work, but it's also a very cliquish crew and they've never really accepted my work.

Edited November 26, 2014 by AllenLowe

[Big Beat Steve]

I am not so sure everything has been reissued. Looking randomly through discographies of early post-war R&B yields a LOT that has NOT been reissued ever. Same when browsing through the Cary Ginell's (pre-war) Western Swing & Hot String Band discography.

BTW, @Paul Secor, sorry but your statements really are far too black-and-whitish. Your statements give short shrift to a LOT of labels beyond BF and Ace that, if you look closer, do cover new ground, though they do take advantage of the P.D. rule. Fresh Sound (yes, THEM!) don't just rehash, they also have reissued stuff from minor labels or oddball artists in modern jazz that no majors (including major reissuers) would EVER care about (or can you name me a recent major reissuer (who'd pay artist royalties to boot) from whom they have snitched away that Vinnie Riccitelli LP reissue, for example? ).

And their R&B subsidiary BLUE MOON has done so with R&B artists from the 78rpm era too. Some of them do make use of previous reissues but CDs on specific artists do resurrect items that have not been around before (at best been some of them have been OOP for decades after having been very, very briefly available on some ultra-obscure Japanese label which to the majority of collectors amounts to "having never been reissued"). So they do put in a lot of work of their own in presenting the music in some coherent fashion for the FIRST time ever. Same in the field of Public Domain-era Country music on the B.A.C.M. label from the UK. Their CDs actually are more like CD-Rs and the source material sometimes is not quite up to snuff soundwise but with the idealistic 2-man almost no-profit operation that is behind it, all I can say is Hats Off to people like them. Never mind if they step on some major's toes because they do milk the P.D. catalog in Europe. Too bad if the majors never bothered to keep all that stuff in print or run their own reissue series in the first place (and claims that they don't because the P.D. labels are there to grab what they do are totally beside the point because they never did any such reissues on these artists even at times when there were no P.D. labels yet).

Also, even if all of Allen's tracks intended for including in that 12-CD (?) project had been reissued before (which I strongly doubt), compiling them in a manner that opens up totally new perspectives and insights and adding some insightful liner notes/booklets DOES add something new and important to the overall product IMO.

As for OJL reissues having become redundant, are you sure?? What other reissues have superseded their not-so-old Ocie Stockard or Leon Chappell CDs, for example?

Finally, as for that scene of niche reissuers being highly cliquish, I'd believe that without hesitation ...

Happens in other circles of niche collectabilia (fit for repressing/reprinting) too where nobody will others (who try to do something, if only to breathe some fresh air in) even give the time of day. They'd rather sit and cluck on what they've got, even if in the end they never do anything with it ...

[AllenLowe]

just to advise; the older BACMs are fine; the recent reissues are un-listenable due to some of the worst de-hissing I have ever heard from a serious label.

[Big Beat Steve]

Just to get this right: Where would you say the "recent" reissues start?

For a while I have participated in their "subscription" program (getting their new 3 CD releases each month) until about 1 1/2 or 2 years ago when I abandoned this because there was not enough overall to REALLY hold my lasting interest (I don't like "country weepers" - different strokes ... ).

Before that date when I quit I found some of these releases indeed a bit "clean" but attributed this to the source material (50s recordings, some of them on major labels where good original copies might be easy to clean up). But my main quibble with some (somewhat older and basically very interesting) reissues unfortunately was that while they had to rely on whatever source material they were provided with from collectors, the sources in these cases did not even sound like sub-par digital copies to me but more like 2nd or 3rd-generation tape copies with a noticeable amount of loudness and brightness variation that seemed to oscillate in regular intervals (as a function of the speed of the rotating tape?), like it can happen with older or worn tapes. These were very isolated instances but still a real pity ...

[paul secor]

I am not so sure everything has been reissued. Looking randomly through discographies of early post-war R&B yields a LOT that has NOT been reissued ever. Same when browsing through the Cary Ginell's (pre-war) Western Swing & Hot String Band discography.

BTW, @Paul Secor, sorry but your statements really are far too black-and-whitish. Your statements give short shrift to a LOT of labels beyond BF and Ace that, if you look closer, do cover new ground, though they do take advantage of the P.D. rule. Fresh Sound (yes, THEM!) don't just rehash, they also have reissued stuff from minor labels or oddball artists in modern jazz that no majors (including major reissuers) would EVER care about (or can you name me a recent major reissuer (who'd pay artist royalties to boot) from whom they have snitched away that Vinnie Riccitelli LP reissue, for example? ).

And their R&B subsidiary BLUE MOON has done so with R&B artists from the 78rpm era too. Some of them do make use of previous reissues but CDs on specific artists do resurrect items that have not been around before (at best been some of them have been OOP for decades after having been very, very briefly available on some ultra-obscure Japanese label which to the majority of collectors amounts to "having never been reissued"). So they do put in a lot of work of their own in presenting the music in some coherent fashion for the FIRST time ever. Same in the field of Public Domain-era Country music on the B.A.C.M. label from the UK. Their CDs actually are more like CD-Rs and the source material sometimes is not quite up to snuff soundwise but with the idealistic 2-man almost no-profit operation that is behind it, all I can say is Hats Off to people like them. Never mind if they step on some major's toes because they do milk the P.D. catalog in Europe. Too bad if the majors never bothered to keep all that stuff in print or run their own reissue series in the first place (and claims that they don't because the P.D. labels are there to grab what they do are totally beside the point because they never did any such reissues on these artists even at times when there were no P.D. labels yet).

Also, even if all of Allen's tracks intended for including in that 12-CD (?) project had been reissued before (which I strongly doubt), compiling them in a manner that opens up totally new perspectives and insights and adding some insightful liner notes/booklets DOES add something new and important to the overall product IMO.

As for OJL reissues having become redundant, are you sure?? What other reissues have superseded their not-so-old Ocie Stockard or Leon Chappell CDs, for example?

Finally, as for that scene of niche reissuers being highly cliquish, I'd believe that without hesitation ...

Happens in other circles of niche collectabilia (fit for repressing/reprinting) too where nobody will others (who try to do something, if only to breathe some fresh air in) even give the time of day. They'd rather sit and cluck on what they've got, even if in the end they never do anything with it ...

You make some cogent points. There are a few OJL releases that may not have been done in better sound. I'm not into Stockard or Chappell, so I don't know about those artists. Yazoo made the OJL blues reissues redundant. I can't imagine anyone wanting to listen to the OJL blues reissues these days.

If Fresh Sound only issued material that hadn't been reissued, I'd be fine with them. But they've issued a lot of things that were available legally (my term) elsewhere. If you're fine with them, that's cool. There are a bunch of us here who are not into what they do.

I'm not much interested in a reshuffling of material that's been all or mostly reissued before and including a booklet that expounds on it. If other people are, that's fine.

I don't want to get into an extended argument on this subject. I've made my points. You and others have made theirs. It is what it is.

One thing that I think that has been lost with all of the reissues is that what I would call the thrill of the chase. Who looks for old LPs, 45s, and 78s anymore? (There are a few people here who seek out 78s and play them, mainly, I believe, for the improvement in sound over LP and CD reissues.) How many people look for old o/p LPs in used stores (other than maybe Jim Sangrey)? Easier to buy a Fresh Sound. How many people seek out old blues 45s anymore? It's easier to browse the internet for compilations.

Everything is easy these days and easy isn't always better. It used to be exciting to find something obscure. It's not so exciting to go online and get hold of everything with a series of clicks. And having everything easily can make you appreciate what you have less. I don't know if you agree, Steve, but I know you've been collecting long enough that you've experienced the difference.