JSngry Posted July 6, 2015 Report Posted July 6, 2015 Seems to be spread out over 4 LPs, I'd like to reassemble in recording order if possible.as always, thanks in advance! Quote
jlhoots Posted July 7, 2015 Report Posted July 7, 2015 I just noticed you lost several hundred posts.Now I don't feel so bad. Quote
JSngry Posted July 7, 2015 Author Report Posted July 7, 2015 Not sure if I lost them in session order or not! Quote
kh1958 Posted July 7, 2015 Report Posted July 7, 2015 Jackie McLean discography on internet says this:Jackie McLean QuartetJackie McLean (alto saxophone) Mal Waldron (piano) Arthur Phipps (bass) Art Taylor (drums)Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Hackensack, NJ, February 15, 19571089I Hear A RhapsodyNew Jazz NJLP 82311090Embraceable YouNew Jazz NJLP 82531091I Never KnewNew Jazz NJLP 82311092These Foolish ThingsNew Jazz NJLP 82531093Our Love Is Here To StayNew Jazz NJLP 82121094I Cover The WaterfrontNew Jazz NJLP 82531095What's NewNew Jazz NJLP 82311096Old FolksNew Jazz NJLP 82121097Bean And The BoysNew Jazz NJLP 82311098Strange BluesPrestige PR 75001099OutburstNew Jazz NJLP 8212* New Jazz NJLP 8231; Original Jazz Classics OJC 197, OJCCD 197-2 Jackie McLean - Makin' The Changes* New Jazz NJLP 8253; Original Jazz Classics OJC 253, OJCCD 253-2 Jackie McLean - A Long Drink Of The Blues* New Jazz NJLP 8212; Original Jazz Classics OJC 098, OJCCD 098-2 Jackie McLean - McLean's Scene* Prestige PR 7500; Original Jazz Classics OJC 354, OJCCD 354-2 Jackie McLean - Strange Blues Quote
JSngry Posted July 7, 2015 Author Report Posted July 7, 2015 Thanks. Pretty productive day at the office. Looking forward to re-creating it from all the pieces, sometimes that's "revealing", sometimes not. But I'm not surprised that "Outburst" was the last tune of the day. Hard to see anywhere to go from there (time/place/etc). Quote
Kevin Bresnahan Posted July 7, 2015 Report Posted July 7, 2015 Jackie McLean discography on internet says this:Jackie McLean QuartetJackie McLean (alto saxophone) Mal Waldron (piano) Arthur Phipps (bass) Art Taylor (drums)Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Hackensack, NJ, February 15, 19571089I Hear A RhapsodyNew Jazz NJLP 82311090Embraceable YouNew Jazz NJLP 82531091I Never KnewNew Jazz NJLP 82311092These Foolish ThingsNew Jazz NJLP 82531093Our Love Is Here To StayNew Jazz NJLP 82121094I Cover The WaterfrontNew Jazz NJLP 82531095What's NewNew Jazz NJLP 82311096Old FolksNew Jazz NJLP 82121097Bean And The BoysNew Jazz NJLP 82311098Strange BluesPrestige PR 75001099OutburstNew Jazz NJLP 8212* New Jazz NJLP 8231; Original Jazz Classics OJC 197, OJCCD 197-2 Jackie McLean - Makin' The Changes* New Jazz NJLP 8253; Original Jazz Classics OJC 253, OJCCD 253-2 Jackie McLean - A Long Drink Of The Blues* New Jazz NJLP 8212; Original Jazz Classics OJC 098, OJCCD 098-2 Jackie McLean - McLean's Scene* Prestige PR 7500; Original Jazz Classics OJC 354, OJCCD 354-2 Jackie McLean - Strange Blues Every track was laid down in one take?? That doesn't seem very likely at all. I wonder where these take numbers came from? Quote
Joe Posted July 7, 2015 Report Posted July 7, 2015 Jackie McLean discography on internet says this:Jackie McLean QuartetJackie McLean (alto saxophone) Mal Waldron (piano) Arthur Phipps (bass) Art Taylor (drums)Rudy Van Gelder Studio, Hackensack, NJ, February 15, 19571089I Hear A RhapsodyNew Jazz NJLP 82311090Embraceable YouNew Jazz NJLP 82531091I Never KnewNew Jazz NJLP 82311092These Foolish ThingsNew Jazz NJLP 82531093Our Love Is Here To StayNew Jazz NJLP 82121094I Cover The WaterfrontNew Jazz NJLP 82531095What's NewNew Jazz NJLP 82311096Old FolksNew Jazz NJLP 82121097Bean And The BoysNew Jazz NJLP 82311098Strange BluesPrestige PR 75001099OutburstNew Jazz NJLP 8212* New Jazz NJLP 8231; Original Jazz Classics OJC 197, OJCCD 197-2 Jackie McLean - Makin' The Changes* New Jazz NJLP 8253; Original Jazz Classics OJC 253, OJCCD 253-2 Jackie McLean - A Long Drink Of The Blues* New Jazz NJLP 8212; Original Jazz Classics OJC 098, OJCCD 098-2 Jackie McLean - McLean's Scene* Prestige PR 7500; Original Jazz Classics OJC 354, OJCCD 354-2 Jackie McLean - Strange Blues Every track was laid down in one take?? That doesn't seem very likely at all. I wonder where these take numbers came from?Seems pretty consistent with the Weinstock aesthetic to me... either that or the Prestige vaults were wiped of alternate takes long before Fantasy acquired their holdings.Amazing to think one session produced that many intense, brooding, "full-on" ballads. Quote
JSngry Posted July 7, 2015 Author Report Posted July 7, 2015 Nothing there that should need more than one take if everybody's hitting, all standards, just set the format, run the tape, and there you go.I still wonder how much of the "incentive" behind this session done this was was the date with Ray Draper just one week earlier. That one did sound like anybody was having fun, to be honest, whereas this looks and sounds like Jackie or Weinstock or somebody came out of it saying, ah, that was not good, let's get back in here and do it right, forget the frills, let's just bring in a quartet and blow hard on a bunch of standards.And if you're looking at a union standard three hour session, you got 11 songs in three hours, a little more than 16 minutes per song on the average. That's about the right time to set a routine, run anything you want to cover, slate it, take it, hear a little playback, and move on. Lather, rinse, repeat."Blowing session" or not, though, that's one successful session! Quote
Kevin Bresnahan Posted July 7, 2015 Report Posted July 7, 2015 I've seen session logs and heard quite a few session tapes by this time in my life and I cannot think of one date where there weren't several false starts or where someone whiffs on a run. I can see sequential take numbers like this if someone took the master tape and spliced together an "LP master" and gave it new take numbers but I have a hard time believing that these guys hit every one of these takes on the first try. After all, this was not a regular working band, was it?Maybe Chuck Nessa, who has sat in on a few sessions in his day, can tell me I'm wrong. Quote
mjzee Posted July 7, 2015 Report Posted July 7, 2015 This looks like it was taken from jazzdisco.org. Does anyone here have Ruppli's Prestige discography? Quote
JSngry Posted July 7, 2015 Author Report Posted July 7, 2015 I've seen session logs and heard quite a few session tapes by this time in my life and I cannot think of one date where there weren't several false starts or where someone whiffs on a run. I can see sequential take numbers like this if someone took the master tape and spliced together an "LP master" and gave it new take numbers but I have a hard time believing that these guys hit every one of these takes on the first try. After all, this was not a regular working band, was it?Maybe Chuck Nessa, who has sat in on a few sessions in his day, can tell me I'm wrong.False starts, etc. are easily allowed for, sure, but it's not like there's any original material or challenging arrangements that should require true multiple takes to get right, just one horn + rhythm trio. We're really talking jam session fare here, and who is there on this date who was not gonna ace that type stuff (especially on a good day, which this appears to have been)? Mal Waldron? Art Taylor? Hell those guys got called for so many dates precisely because of their reliability. And Jackie sounds like he came to bring the heat from note one. So, really, essentially club gig, no do-overs there, right? This was Prestige, remember, bring 'em in, move 'em out, put out the records.Eleven songs in three hours, not a whole lot of room for starting over there. Quote
JSngry Posted July 7, 2015 Author Report Posted July 7, 2015 For grins, let's add up the times of these things: 1089I Hear A Rhapsody5:091090Embraceable You7:051091I Never Knew3:021092These Foolish Things8:191093Our Love Is Here To Stay4:191094I Cover The Waterfront6:241095What's New7:101096Old Folks4:531097Bean And The Boys8:351098Strange Blues7:321099Outburst4:33 Missing is an alternate (a-HA!) of "What's New" on Strange Blues which clocks in 6:35. Total time of issued music = 73:36 for 12 songs (the Jazz Discog thing misses the alternate of "What's New". This from a time when the standard for pop records was to get 4 songs/session. Of course, jazz mo'swifter unless shit go bad (and lord knows...), and of course there's bathroom breaks, etc.Again, the point is not that everything was one take perfect (although, again, do the math, not a lot went wrong, nor should it have, not with these players and this material), just that it was a damn productive session. And the further it goes along, the better it gets!And it would fit on one CD. Where's our "For Discrinimalating Collectioneers Only" shady-grady labels with Jackie McLean - The Legendary February 15, 1957 Session? This looks like it was taken from jazzdisco.org. Does anyone here have Ruppli's Prestige discography?This. I would like to know which take of "What's New" came first, or if they were even played sequentially. Quote
mikeweil Posted July 8, 2015 Report Posted July 8, 2015 This looks like it was taken from jazzdisco.org. Does anyone here have Ruppli's Prestige discography?I have the first edition, with exactly this sequence and these master numbers. As for false starts and incomplete takes, I have never seen any of them listed in the Prestige disco, only rejected or unissued takes. To me it looks like masters numbers were attributed only to complete, accepted takes in the Prestige files. Quote
JSngry Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Posted July 8, 2015 Yeah, Prestige of the time did not seem to be a label that obsessed over "perfect" takes, at least not in terms of neatness of heads and such.Looking for comparably productive sessions, the first thing that comes to mind is the two Miles "contract fulfillment" sessions:Miles Davis (tpt); John Coltrane (ts); William "Red" Garland (p); Paul Chambers (b); Philly Joe Jones (d)May 11, 1956 (14 items; TT = 81:49)1In Your Own Sweet Way (D. Brubeck)5:402Diane (E. Rapee-L. Pollack)7:443Trane's Blues [John Paul Jones] (M. Davis)8:25 Before the tune starts, Davis says, "Blues..." followed by Chambers tuning4Something I Dreamed Last Night (J. Yellen-S. Fain-H. Magidson)6:125It Could Happen to You (J. Burke-J. Van Heusen)6:36 After the tune Davis asks, "How was that, Bob? Okay if we do Woody 'n' You? All right, just Joe..."6Woody 'n' You (D. Gillespie)5:00 After the tune, this exchange: "Okay?" Weinstock (joking): "Do that one over." Davis (testily): "Why?" Coltrane (nonchalantly): "Could I have the beer opener?"7Ahmad's Blues (A. Jamal)7:208Surrey with the Fringe on Top (R. Rodgers-O. Hammerstein)9:009It Never Entered My Mind (R. Rodgers-L. Hart)5:2010When I Fall in Love (E. Heyman-V. Young)4:20 Issued without piano solo on Prestige 45-19511Salt Peanuts (D. Gillespie-K. Clarke)6:0312Four (M. Davis)7:1013The Theme (take 1) (M. Davis)1:5714The Theme (take 2) (M. Davis)1:02October 26, 1956 (15 items; TT = 75:00)Rudy van Gelder Studio, Hackensack NJCommercial for PrestigeMiles Davis Quintet Miles Davis (tpt); John Coltrane (ts); William "Red" Garland (p); Paul Chambers (b); Philly Joe Jones (d)October 26, 1956 (15 items; TT = 75:00)1If I Were a Bell (F. Loesser)8:13 Most issues include a brief exchange between Davis and Weinstock at the beginning ("I'll play it and tell you what it is later") and count-off until 0:102Well, You Needn't (T. Monk)6:153'Round Midnight (B. Hanighen-C. Williams-T. Monk)5:214Half Nelson (M. Davis)4:435You're My Everything (false start) (M. Dixon-J. Young-H. Warren)0:30 Davis: "'You're My Everything', Red... Hold it, ev -- you, when you see a red light on, everybody's supposed to be quiet." Van Gelder: "Here we go, Miles." Davis: "All right." False start. Davis: "Play some block chords, Red. All right, Rudy? Block chords, Red..."6You're My Everything (M. Dixon-J. Young-H. Warren)4:467I Could Write a Book (R. Rodgers-L. Hart)5:05 Issued without p solo on Prestige 45-1958Oleo (false start) (S. Rollins)0:36 False start. Davis: "Uh, it's got a four-bar beat." Tuning and rehearsal. Weinstock: "One thousand one..." Davis: "Rudy, turn on the red light." Chambers: "What is it?" Davis: "Newk's number one." Chambers: "Number one... Just like we do it at work?" Davis: "Yeah, watch your tempo, Paul, willya?" Jones: "Yeah, let's keep it up there." Davis: "There you go."9Oleo (S. Rollins)5:4910Airegin (S. Rollins)4:2111Tune Up (M. Davis)5:4012When Lights Are Low (B. Carter-C. Williams)7:27 At the end Davis says "Okay... All right. Okay." Listed as "Just Squeeze Me" on cover (but not label) of Prestige 709413Blues by Five (false start) (R. Garland)0:24 Garland: "Who's this? You gonna blow on it?" Davis: "No, you -- the rhythm section's gonna play it first. You're gonna play it first, we're gonna come in. Here you go." Snaps fingers. Garland: "Right on it?" Davis: "Yeah... Right on it." False start. Davis: "Hold it, hold it. That's right on it. That's the chorus, Joe. That's the chorus... Here we go..." Coltrane warming up.14Blues by Five (R. Garland)9:5415My Funny Valentine (R. Rodgers-L. Hart)5:56 Conventional wisdom is that the band simply showed up, got levels, and then played what for all intents and purposes were two club sets per date. Pauses are definitely part of the mix, but not for much. Two and a half hours of releasable music out of two sessions, even if some OT was involved (was there?), that's pretty damn impressive. Quote
Peter Friedman Posted July 26, 2015 Report Posted July 26, 2015 (edited) I am a bit confused about whether there actually was an alternate take of "What's New"?It looks to me like that tune was recorded by two different groups. The quartet version with Mal Waldron, Art Phipps and Art Taylor. The version on the "Makin' The Changes" album is by a sextet with:Jackie McLean, Curtis Fuller, Webster Young, Gil Coggins, Paul Chambers, Louis Hayesrecorded on August 30, 1957 Edited July 26, 2015 by Peter Friedman Quote
Chuck Nessa Posted July 26, 2015 Report Posted July 26, 2015 Rudy asked producers if they wanted to save false starts and breakdowns. If the answer was "no" he would back up the tape and start over. Quote
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